tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post1340270223820963297..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: st- or sd-?John Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-66914609815314281922020-02-14T05:08:00.013+00:002020-02-14T05:08:00.013+00:00I've really like your blog and inspire me in m...I've really like your blog and inspire me in many ways. If you need any assistance regarding assignment making, then you are at right place. Its high time to beat your competitors with our <a href="https://www.goassignmenthelp.com.au/paper-writing-service/" rel="nofollow">paper writing service</a> and score high grades in our guidance. We will provide you supreme quality <a href="https://www.goassignmenthelp.com.au/financial-statement-analysis-assignment-help/" rel="nofollow">financial statement analysis assignment help</a> at cheapest price<br />Nick Wilkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10631813414725010792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-43810981454204225522020-01-15T06:49:21.736+00:002020-01-15T06:49:21.736+00:00Need to upgrade your home locks or simply get out ...Need to upgrade your home locks or simply get out of a locked car. We are the best answers for your needs of <a href="https://servicenearme.org/locksmith/" rel="nofollow">Locksmith Near Me</a> or Locksmith In My Area.John Smihhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06430989739831162440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-17943122775074895842020-01-11T11:35:31.634+00:002020-01-11T11:35:31.634+00:00Get free unique thesis topic ideas on Anthropology...Get free unique <a href="https://nature-polychrome.piwigo.com/index?/guestbook" rel="nofollow">thesis topic ideas</a> on Anthropology, social health, gender roles and society, political sociology and so on... from students assignment help.Stefan Carlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756318893502161504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-73133886518478891332020-01-07T06:27:21.343+00:002020-01-07T06:27:21.343+00:00Southwest Airlines Phone Number here is coming to...<a href="https://southwestcontactnumber.com/southwest-airlines-phone-number/" rel="nofollow"> Southwest Airlines Phone Number </a> here is coming to thousands of users because of getting major service. If you want to travel with cheap flight tickets, then there is a big concern for every user. Stay in touch with the Southwest Airlines phone number, we make reservations over the phone and through our website. Our representative has world-class service available via Southwest Airlines phone number.Emma Shirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02465462160116943326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-44722492219723340802019-12-23T05:08:56.284+00:002019-12-23T05:08:56.284+00:00Excellent information Providing by your Article, t...Excellent information Providing by your Article, thank you for taking the time to share with us such a nice article. Amazing insight you have on this, it's nice to find a website that details so much information about different artists. Kindly visit the LiveWebTutors website we providing the best assignment help services in Australia.<br /><br />For More Info: <a href="https://www.livewebtutors.com/australia/assignment-help-sydney" rel="nofollow">Assignment Help Sydney</a><br />Olivia Crewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16768926686707861730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-53447565348149016972011-04-18T17:45:41.201+01:002011-04-18T17:45:41.201+01:00Possibly Proto-Germanic.
Northern German is said ...<i>Possibly Proto-Germanic.</i><br /><br />Northern German is said to do it.<br /><br />Southern, lacking both aspiration and voicing, doesn't; those accents that still distinguish fortes and lenes keep this distinction completely unchanged behind fricatives. Indeed, my teachers failed to ever mention the English rule that aspiration is suppressed after /s/, so – at least in halfway careful speech – I kept the aspiration till I read about the rule a few years ago.<br /><br /><i>Note that stage 1 was inhibited after /s/ (which is why the things in the sky are stars rather than *sthars).</i><br /><br />Its equivalent was <b>again</b> inhibited in the High German consonant shift, which is why the things in the sky are <i>Sterne</i> rather than... how to even spell this hypothetical... <i>*Schzerne</i>. However, phonetically speaking at least, they aren't <i>*Schderne</i> either; the /d/ -> /t/ part of the High German consonant shift did <b>not</b> spare them.David Marjanovićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-62469411246686639222011-04-08T18:31:01.884+01:002011-04-08T18:31:01.884+01:00"What other languages do it"?
Possibly ...<i>"What other languages do it"?</i><br /><br />Possibly Proto-Germanic. Assume that Grimm's Law was originally a process of devoicing, like the Armenian Consonant Shift:<br /><br />1. t -> tʰ (-> tθ -> θ)<br />2. d -> t<br />3. dʱ -> d (-> ð in some positions)<br /><br />Note that stage 1 was inhibited after /s/ (which is why the things in the sky are stars rather than *sthars).vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-1334972739571215462011-04-06T12:14:43.462+01:002011-04-06T12:14:43.462+01:00John,
I did see that you must in principle be oper...John,<br />I did see that you must in principle be operating with some onset maximization criterion, and that was why I mentioned that (as of course opposed to stwɪθ) twɪθ is a phonological possibility in English, but my knowledge of Welsh is so nugatory that I was struggling to see what that onset maximization criterion was. <br /><br />Thanks to you for putting me out of my misery over the different treatment of Aberystwyth and Ystwyth, and to the cold light of a new day for revealing that in LPD you do intend to suggest that the t in the previous syllable can finish up as in the dʌs tə dʌs of your family funeral, by italicizing it: ˌæb ə ˈrɪs<i>t</i> wɪθ. But you don't do this in ˈʌst wɪθ. Now that you have told me that there's no reason for any difference in the Welsh, can I assume that the difference in the English is merely because of the greater familiarity of Aberystwyth?<br /><br />Not that when I said twɪθ is a phonological possibility in English, accounting for aspiration in (Aber)ystwyth, I meant to imply that there had to be any. But I did consider it a possibility that needed to be accounted for, at any rate in my speech, because I usually explode t in final clusters like that before w, but don't aspirate it. 'Eastward', 'software' would be examples. I have no idea why I wanted to justify my aspiration of it in '(Aber)ystwyth'. Perhaps because I have no such greater familiarity with it. It certainly wasn't because I had ever had any illusions about the realizations of these clusters in Welsh.<br /><br />vp,<br />«I hear "Wisconsin" being pronounced with aspirated /k/ by some speakers, and unaspirated by others.»<br /><br />That's about it for me too, even though unlike Aberystwyth it's the stressed syllable which may be analyzed con or scon in accordance with the aspirated and unaspirated variants. <br /><br />«my rule seems to be that /s/ suppresses aspiration of a following plosive unless a morpheme boundary intervene, as it does in e.g. "misplaced". »<br /><br />This is what I of course meant when I said above "the presence or absence of aspiration is what pretty consistently distinguishes your pair "discussed" and "disgust", because they're not initial clusters". Neither is the sk in 'askew' 'askance' (irrespective of the uncertain morphological composition of the second). Sorry.<br /><br />But I think it's also of some interest that I seem to have a hierarchy of morpheme boundaries affecting this. For me the aspiration seems totally unaffected in "misplaced", which for me has secondary stress, but may well be diminished in "displaced", which doesn’t. Similarly with "miscast" as opposed to "discussed".mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-4903378534568530382011-04-06T09:43:47.547+01:002011-04-06T09:43:47.547+01:00mallamb:
I plead guilty to inconsistency in the We...mallamb:<br />I plead guilty to inconsistency in the Welsh syllabification of <i>Ystwyth</i> as against <i>Aberystwyth</i>. On the assumption that onset maximization is correct for Welsh, unlike for English, the former should be shown as [ˈə sduɨθ].John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-82027701481367142322011-04-06T06:52:27.103+01:002011-04-06T06:52:27.103+01:00And even when the s and the plosive are putatively...<i>And even when the s and the plosive are putatively in different syllables there may be something very close to a neutralization: think about discussed and disgust.</i><br /><br />I hear "Wisconsin" being pronounced with aspirated /k/ by some speakers, and unaspirated by others. In my own speech it's unaspirated: my rule seems to be that /s/ suppresses aspiration of a following plosive unless a morpheme boundary intervene, as it does in e.g. "misplaced".vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-32421287864497841622011-04-06T05:51:51.873+01:002011-04-06T05:51:51.873+01:00@VP - treating /p/ as [b] after /s/ and [pʰ] elsew...<i>@VP - treating /p/ as [b] after /s/ and [pʰ] elsewhere (i.e. neutralising the p-b distinction after /s/) still preservers the three-way distinction.<br /><br />Ignoring stress and word boundaries you get:<br />This pin: /ðɪs pɪn/ -> [ðɪspʰɪn]<br />This spin: /ðɪs spɪn/ -> [ðɪssbɪn]<br />This bin: /ðɪs bɪn/ -> [ðɪsbɪn]</i><br /><br />That is true. But the difference between "this spin" and "this bin" does seem to surface in voice-onset time, as well as in the length of the [s] sound.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-71700500987214580952011-04-06T05:50:14.378+01:002011-04-06T05:50:14.378+01:00@VP - you could always record yourself and run the...<i>@VP - you could always record yourself and run the recording thru PRAAT? </i><br /><br />Does anyone know of a Praat or Praat-like app available for the iPhone?vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-90484628520944031992011-04-06T01:36:32.111+01:002011-04-06T01:36:32.111+01:00Whenever I have tested unaspirated [p t k] with na...<i>Whenever I have tested unaspirated [p t k] with native speakers of AmE, they invariably hear them as /b d g/ and never as /p t k/.</i><br />I'm a native speaker of a language where lenis consonants are fully voiced and fortis consonants are unaspirated, and mishearing e.g. a devoiced /b/ as /p/ used to be one of the most frequent sources of my misunderstanding. Now, on the other hand, I even tend to perceive unaspirated /k/ (as in syllable codas, e.g. in <i>sulfuric acid</i>) as /g/ until I realize that doesn't make sense.army1987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-86318248683997427782011-04-05T17:46:04.242+01:002011-04-05T17:46:04.242+01:00@Phil Smith,
Record yourself saying "spy,&quo...@Phil Smith,<br />Record yourself saying "spy," "sty," and "sky" in any sound editing program (Audacity, Wavesurfer, Praat), delete the /s/, and then see whether the result sounds like "pie, tie, kye," or "buy, die, guy."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-81938772867329337582011-04-05T17:35:32.435+01:002011-04-05T17:35:32.435+01:00@Phil Smith: Funnily enough I also have a very har...@Phil Smith: Funnily enough I also have a very hard time producing the unaspirated voiceless plosives required for many European languages. (I'm an English NS.)<br /><br />For me these simple sounds are far more difficult than the "exotic" consonants like <b>q</b>, <b>ɬ</b> or <b>ʕ</b>...even though I automatically pronounce them after <b>s</b>.Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13722482936100504510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-34107499196276641132011-04-05T17:15:17.266+01:002011-04-05T17:15:17.266+01:00Well, when I hear them in context at least. But t...Well, when I hear them in context at least. But that's what's important anyway, isn't it? How often am I going to hear someone say <em>tapa</em> with no other words around it?Phil Smithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-493447328563622322011-04-05T17:13:33.486+01:002011-04-05T17:13:33.486+01:00@ John Cowan: I speak AmE and when I hear the una...@ John Cowan: I speak AmE and when I hear the unaspirated plosives of Spanish and other languages I don't hear them as /b d g/. Maybe that's because I took several years of Spanish. Maybe I've just been blessed with good ears. I do have a difficult time imitating them though.Phil Smithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-2790085479580612092011-04-05T16:33:12.634+01:002011-04-05T16:33:12.634+01:00John,
«In LPD I give the Welsh-language pronunciat...John,<br />«In LPD I give the Welsh-language pronunciation of Aberystwyth as a ber ˈə sduɨθ. In English, on the other hand, it is ˌæb ə ˈrɪst wɪθ. Jack wants to know why I transcribe the last syllable in the Welsh form with sd rather than st.»<br /><br />I should like to know further why that sd is in the last syllable rather than the previous one, where you have put the st for the English pronunciation. You are happy with the sd in the coda for the amendment ɬanˈruːsd you have now given for ɬanˈruːst. Would you similarly treat your example llestri as ˈɬesd ri? For Ystwyth in LPD you have ˈʌst wɪθ parallel to your syllabification for Aberystwyth, but ˈəs duiθ, -duɨθ for the Welsh. And twɪθ is a phonological possibility in English, accounting for aspiration in (Aber)ystwyth. Assigning the t to the previous syllable might suggest that it can finish up as in the dʌs tə dʌs of your family funeral.<br /><br />Similarly I think the presence or absence of aspiration is what pretty consistently distinguishes your pair "discussed" and "disgust", because they're not initial clusters, and if they are ever completely undistinguishable I would call it homophony rather than "something very close to a neutralization". <br /><br />The initial cluster in "scut" of course does involve a neutralization, and in the functionalist tradition you don't need to get caught up in any dispute as to whether it's /k/ or /g/ in such clusters: as an oppositional entity it's neither of them, as it lacks the distinctive feature in respect of which they are opposed. You are obliged to recognize a neutralization here, and establish an archiphoneme which stands in that position in place of either of the fully-featured phonemes, and you can represent this archiphoneme with a capital letter –– the UC version of either of them actually, but usually of the impressionistically more appropriate in terms of realization. That can of course, as for example with final stops in German, be much more obviously the fortis than here.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-36119904469918330502011-04-05T14:51:36.068+01:002011-04-05T14:51:36.068+01:00Whenever I have tested unaspirated [p t k] with na...Whenever I have tested unaspirated [p t k] with native speakers of AmE, they invariably hear them as /b d g/ and never as /p t k/.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-26141513490978091202011-04-05T14:10:00.130+01:002011-04-05T14:10:00.130+01:00@VP - treating /p/ as [b] after /s/ and [pʰ] elsew...@VP - treating <b>/p/</b> as <b>[b]</b> after <b>/s/</b> and <b>[pʰ]</b> elsewhere (<i>i.e.</i> neutralising the <b>p</b>-<b>b</b> distinction after <b>/s/</b>) still preservers the three-way distinction.<br /><br />Ignoring stress and word boundaries you get:<br /> <i>This pin</i>: <b>/ðɪs pɪn/</b> -> <b>[ðɪspʰɪn]</b><br /> <i>This spin</i>: <b>/ðɪs spɪn/</b> -> <b>[ðɪssbɪn]</b><br /> <i>This bin</i>: <b>/ðɪs bɪn/</b> -> <b>[ðɪsbɪn]</b>Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13722482936100504510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-26388694652892755912011-04-05T13:22:23.067+01:002011-04-05T13:22:23.067+01:00@VP - you could always record yourself and run the...@VP - you could always record yourself and run the recording thru PRAAT?Martin J Ballhttp://clinicallinguistics.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-80127584788979922172011-04-05T12:48:39.793+01:002011-04-05T12:48:39.793+01:00I may be deluding myself, but I fancy that I have ...I may be deluding myself, but I fancy that I have a three-way opposition of voice-onset times between "this pin", "this spin" and "this bin".vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-19972956298216500972011-04-05T11:05:39.839+01:002011-04-05T11:05:39.839+01:00I meant “because it's spelt n” of course.I meant “because it's spelt <i>n</i>” of course.army1987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-44345540892683159122011-04-05T11:04:41.336+01:002011-04-05T11:04:41.336+01:00Every now and again someone has the idea of arguin...<i>Every now and again someone has the idea of arguing that this word should correctly be transcribed as sbɪn rather than spɪn.</i><br />AFAICT the main reason why this isn't done is spelling (in Italian [ɱ] -- occurring only before /f/ and /v/ where no other nasal is possible -- is usually considered an allophone of /n/ rather than of /m/ because it's spelt <i>m</i>, etc.), though I'd like to know what natively-English-speaking supersymmetry scholars pronounce <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squark#Squarks" rel="nofollow"><i>sdown</i> and <i>sbottom</i></a> (/zdaUn/ maybe?).<br /><br />If we really wanted to find a totally spelling-independent criterion, ask someone to read a text containing words such as <i>spin</i>, record it, isolate the words, strip the initial fricatives away, play them back, and ask them to tell whether they sounds more like <i>pin</i> or <i>bin</i>. But I wouldn't be surprised if they answered about 50% of the times with the fortis consonant and about 50% with the lenis one.army1987noreply@blogger.com