tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post1356861174297481775..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: rhymes for “love”John Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-59239816143571586622020-02-03T09:06:48.823+00:002020-02-03T09:06:48.823+00:00That's so great when reading news here. It'...That's so great when reading news here. It's good <a href="https://pixelgun3d.io" rel="nofollow">pixel gun 3d</a>Alyson Dawsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647529128530306187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-39777715214446973552011-03-08T14:30:15.882+00:002011-03-08T14:30:15.882+00:00I just thought I'd throw in a rather well-know...I just thought I'd throw in a rather well-known British example:<br /><br /><i><br />You think you've lost your love.<br />Well I saw her yesterday.<br />It's you she's thinking of,<br />And she told me what to say.<br /></i><br /><br />So they obviously felt it was close enough to be usable. Clearly it doesn't actually rhyme properly in BrE (just as neither does "fair" rhyme with "her", used later in the song), but to my ear as an RP speaker the "love" / "of" mismatch still sounds a lot less jarring than the eye-rhyme with "move" etc does, e.g.:<br /><br /><i><br />Thee to know, Thy power to prove, [Alleluia!]<br />Thus to sing and thus to love, [Alleluia!]<br /></i>Alannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-68593350543692545092011-02-16T02:03:21.303+00:002011-02-16T02:03:21.303+00:00@ Pianoman: I hear /ʌ/ as being between [ʌ] and [ɜ...@ Pianoman: I hear /ʌ/ as being between [ʌ] and [ɜ] (rather than between [ɜ] and [ɐ]) in my General American type accent.Philnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-28195306547332646142011-02-16T01:42:47.959+00:002011-02-16T01:42:47.959+00:00Back to the rhymes: a slogan to encourage condom u...Back to the rhymes: a slogan to encourage condom use is "No glove, no love", and the 1955 novel <i>Gladiator-at-Law</i> by Frederick Pohl and Cyril M. Kornbluth contains the phrase "pick up a surrounded cavity and shove some love". So if you are crude enough, some of the rhymes for <i>love</i> become useful after all.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-33288445057163181302011-02-15T17:03:46.643+00:002011-02-15T17:03:46.643+00:00I know the NURSE-NEAR merger mirror, spirit with a...I know the NURSE-NEAR merger mirror, spirit with a syllabic /r/is not "GenAm". I was talking about what it would make me deliriously happy to do with teardrop's syllabic [ɹ̩] whatever its status. The solidi are in deference to the phonological status of such a merger, if it is total. I added the example 'stirrer' in case anyone objected to that, but it's not an example that makes me as deliriously happy as the merged ones, which are a source of much merriment to the unmerged.<br /><br />Your hurry-furry merger would be perfectly OK for an example of the need to mark the nucleus in some cases but not others if we recognize the complementary distribution of NURSE and LETTER by treating them as allphones, but I really wanted an unambiguous example with both nuclear and peripheral /r/ in it, and /mrr/ with the NURSE-NEAR merger clearly is one in the absence of an initial cluster /mr-/ with prenuclear r, and so I think is /strr/ in the absence of [rɹ̩]. Of your hurry and furry /hri/ would be unambiguous but /f_r_i/ would have to be marked to obviate the interpretation [friː], since a nuclear i there would be unchecked.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-1305827107170121832011-02-15T15:49:32.868+00:002011-02-15T15:49:32.868+00:00There are people in the U.S. who have a NURSE-NEAR...There are people in the U.S. who have a NURSE-NEAR merger and say <i>mirror, spirit</i> with a syllabic /r/. But that is not "GenAm", the notional accent used by dictionaries. In that pronunciation, NEAR is KIT + /r/.<br /><br />In my own accent, FWIW, NEAR is FLEECE + /r/, so /spirət/, /mirər/. I do have a full-blown <i>hurry-furry</i> merger, untypically for the rest of my accent, so those words have syllabic /r/.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-84708704531421269362011-02-15T15:38:54.022+00:002011-02-15T15:38:54.022+00:00comment of uder to imagination prefferred solo mix...comment of uder to imagination prefferred solo mixed by no return no future noname exemple fanatic thriller policier expression mulder...ect...i m sorry i live in france ....et aimai avoir une vie normal avec une femme et des enfants comme toutes personne normal...cest horrible ou vous en etes spermatozoide humains !!!! horrible!!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-33189881219406074462011-02-15T11:32:05.204+00:002011-02-15T11:32:05.204+00:00I don't recommend the [ä] pronunciation (Spani...<i>I don't recommend the [ä] pronunciation (Spanish/Italian A) although ... it's the norm in Australian English [for STRUT].</i><br />Is it? I know a Spaniard who said <i>funny</i> with (I suppose) his Spanish-/a/ sound and an Australian misunderstood him as <i>fanny</i>. (But that happened in Ireland, so maybe it's just that the Australian had gotten attuned to the Irish accent too much.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-87368692151980731462011-02-15T10:10:12.875+00:002011-02-15T10:10:12.875+00:00Thanks for t hat, pianoman.Thanks for t hat, pianoman.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-41528689669621346002011-02-15T00:00:41.449+00:002011-02-15T00:00:41.449+00:00What a coincidence! A couple of hours after I read...What a coincidence! A couple of hours after I read this post, I listened for the first time to the song "Lullaby of birdland": "Have you ever heard two turtle doves / Bill and coo, when they love?" and "high in the sky up above / All because were in love" :)Silhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06466548295091605957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-24127015740269235392011-02-14T23:46:21.817+00:002011-02-14T23:46:21.817+00:00/ʌ/ sound is pronounced:
between [ɜ ] and [ɐ ] in.../ʌ/ sound is pronounced:<br /><br />between [ɜ ] and [ɐ ] in American English.<br /><br />[ɐ ] is more common on the West Coast;<br /><br />[ɜ ] is more common in Midwest<br /><br />very low/open pronunciation: [ä] is typical of accented Pittsburghese, and very high/close pronunciation [ɘ] is Southern.<br /><br />British people hear the American pronunciation of LOVE as LURVE, so your best bet is [ɜ ] .<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-mid_central_unrounded_vowel<br /><br />In American English, STRUT vowel and LOT vowels are never the same, in Pittsburgh, as in Cockney STRUT has [ä] while LOT has [ɒ]: sucks [säks] ~ socks [sɒks]. In General American: sucks [sɜks] ~ socks [sɑks]. In Arizona, CUT has [ɐ ], and COT/CAUGHT have [ä].<br /><br />In RP, the STRUT vowel is [ɐ ], but some people use the older form [ɜ ] which is considered refined. I don't recommend the [ä] pronunciation (Spanish/Italian A) although it's normal in suburban London accents (Estuary and Cockney) and it's the norm in Australian English.<br /><br />---<br />---from ANAE (by prof. Labov)---------------------------------------------<br /><br />Mean F1 of the stressed vowel in ''study, mother, bud, just by dialect'':<br /><br /><br /><br />Pittsburgh--------------787<br />Eastern New England--768<br />RP------------------------754<br />Atlantic Provinces------746<br />Providence--------------736<br />Canada------------------736<br />Cincinnati--------------730<br />Western New England-728<br />Boston----------------- 727<br />St. Louis---------------726<br />Western Pennsylvania-725<br />Florida-----------------723<br />Middle Atlantic---------721<br />West--------------------712<br />Charleston--------------712<br />Inland North------------706<br />North-------------------701.4<br />Midland-----------------695<br />NYC---------------------692<br />South-------------------687<br />Texas South------------673<br />Inland South-----------664<br /><br />Mean values of low vowels for 20 dialects. PI = Pittsburgh; WPA = Western Pennsylvania; CA = Canada; PR = Providence; S = Inland South; M = Midland; IN = Inland North.Pianomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15648008088325003262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-77162576448956955242011-02-14T18:43:17.979+00:002011-02-14T18:43:17.979+00:00Tho I would prefer /strr/, since I don't think...Tho I would prefer /strr/, since I don't think /str_r_/ [strɹ̩] would be a phonological possibility.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-27567758881223031852011-02-14T18:39:34.652+00:002011-02-14T18:39:34.652+00:00If you don't like my /ˈsp_r_ət/ for spirit or ...If you don't like my /ˈsp_r_ət/ for spirit or /mrr/ for mirror, you can call me a /st_r_r/.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-87605533385392878852011-02-14T18:34:37.172+00:002011-02-14T18:34:37.172+00:00Please not another Anonymous or even Onymous who d...Please not another Anonymous or even Onymous who doesn’t read previous posts.<br /><br />army and teardrop, you obviously have, but I think the font or the stylesheet may have misled you, or even the IPA with its fiddly r-colouring tittle. No one has said GenAm NURSE is phonemically different from STRUT + /r/, though my use of both ɜ and ɝ with the near-invisible tittle might have suggested such a difference if they had been in solidi, but they are not, and the ɝ with tittle in LPD is typical of its relatively narrow transcription. Personally I don't think it's even phonemically different from commA + /r/, because how would you propose to refute the hypothesis that STRUT and COMMA are the same phoneme with as you say an allophonic difference in vowel qualities? That is purely positionally determined, and so marginal as not to be worth arguing about, as JW and Lipman imply by "ʌv (with the STRUT vowel; some prefer to write it əv)" and "Aren't ʌv and əv simply the same in many American accents?" I would be deliriously happy with /r/ alone for your syllabic [ɹ̩] NURSE, teardrop, or for that matter for [ɝ], whatever their length, provided it is marked as nuclear where that would be ambiguous, as in e.g. /ˈsp_r_ət/ for spirit, but not really /mrr/ for mirror.<br /><br />I certainly don't believe "that STRUT (/ʌ/) is pronounced [ɜː] in AmE as if the realizations of the two phonemes had merged (bird-bud)". I was just guying the pronunciation lɜːv in pop songs etc, as does the spelling 'lurve' current on this side of the Pond for that pronunciation. I think it was even before that spelling was current that JW was spelling it 'lerve', and in my last post I was just taking his lead in identifying that as the only sort of situation in which GenAm might indeed have ɜː. <br /><br />Thanks for the clarification of the dissimilation in 'quarter'. Don’t know why you have ɹ in the solidi instead of r, though. And in fact I wouldn’t say it was exactly "dropped" if its non-articulation doesn't affect the quality of the vowel: the dissimilation is just a realizational matter in phonetics if the r is still doing its phonological stuff.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-37758833768215769592011-02-14T16:22:32.520+00:002011-02-14T16:22:32.520+00:00why doesn't maternal rhyme with colonel? Colon...why doesn't maternal rhyme with colonel? Colonel sounds like kernel, doesn't it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-47418137651646406172011-02-14T15:59:43.092+00:002011-02-14T15:59:43.092+00:00I don't have STRUT or LOT in stressed of. I se...I don't have STRUT or LOT in stressed <i>of</i>. I seem to use some variety of [ɔ] in it (but that's not my THOUGHT vowel; I have THOUGHT merged with LOT as [ɒ]). I'm not quite sure how that vowel got there, so I assume being a function word has something to do with it. I think I use the same vowel in <i>because</i>?<br /><br />By the way, the song "I Miss the Music", from the musical <i>Curtains</i>, begins with a short verse on the difficulty of writing non-trite lyrics:<br /><br />Don't talk about love<br />Or you'll have to say "fits like a glove"<br />Or "As certain as push comes to shove"<br />You will pine for the woman you're constantly thinking of.AJDhttp://ling.upenn.edu/~dinkinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-29405535211138126832011-02-14T14:51:42.692+00:002011-02-14T14:51:42.692+00:00A pre-consonantal /ɹ/ can get dissimilated (droppe...A pre-consonantal /ɹ/ can get dissimilated (dropped) if another /ɹ/ is present in a neighboring (usually following) syllable, just like in quarter, but unlike in colonel. But that doesn't effect the quality of the vowel: an r-less 'quarter' won't sound like "quawter" in AmE, as this latter would have a lot more opener vowel, even [ɑ] for a cot-cought merger.<br /><br />As for NURSE (/ɜːɹ/), which is always stressed, it is often realized as [əːɹ] or just a syllabic [ɹ̩] in AmE – it quite rarely gets articulated as open as BrE [ɜː]. But when syllabic, it is the nucleus of the stressed syllable, so unlikely to get dropped, as in squirter, but it can become rhotacized [ɚː] or occasionally vocalic [əː]. An unstressed /əɹ/ is more likely to get dissimilated close to another /ɹ/, like in governor.<br /><br />Many people misbelieve that STRUT (/ʌ/) is pronounced [ɜː] in AmE as if the realizations of the two phonemes had merged (bird-bud), but that's not the case. Though /ʌ/ can have a more centralized articulation, closer to [ɜ], it is usually less centralized and less open than its BrE equivalent of [ɐ], so phonetically it is quite distinct from the syllabic or closer realizations of /ɜːɹ/. But even if they were identical in quality, they'd still be different in length.<br /><br />So a dissimilated 'curver' doesn't sound like 'cover'.teardropnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-21251884289929829732011-02-14T14:23:49.803+00:002011-02-14T14:23:49.803+00:00Huh, AFAIK in GenAm NURSE is not phonemically diff...Huh, AFAIK in GenAm NURSE is not phonemically different from STRUT + /r/ (e.g. <i>furry</i> rhymes with <i>hurry</i>), though there might be an allophonic difference in vowel qualities.army1987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-91699129019489459622011-02-14T13:25:08.903+00:002011-02-14T13:25:08.903+00:00Ooops - that's what happens when you post at 3...Ooops - that's what happens when you post at 3.46am (CST)!<br />Of course, colonel and maternal do rhyme...!!Martin J Ballhttp://clinicallinguistics.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-30069345259269801262011-02-14T12:48:32.076+00:002011-02-14T12:48:32.076+00:00I said "I can't imagine r-free ɜ in AmE.&...I said "I can't imagine r-free ɜ in AmE." <br /><br />Duh! The word lɜːv itself! I meant of course I couldn't imagine anything rhotic having an r-free ɜ option, at any rate in opposition (or even non-rhyme) with a rhotic ɝ. But if AmE ˈkwɔːrt̬r, ˈkɔːrt̬r can get dissimilated to ˈkwɔːt̬r, ˈkɔːt̬r, who can say what might happen to 'squirter'.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-84132803043406585802011-02-14T11:20:25.077+00:002011-02-14T11:20:25.077+00:00It took a bit of finding, but this from The Gratef...It took a bit of finding, but this from <b>The Grateful Dead</b><br /><br /><i>When push comes to shove, when push comes to shove,<br />You're afraid of love, when push comes to shove.</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-22519137596671880592011-02-14T11:13:41.437+00:002011-02-14T11:13:41.437+00:00Here are Harrison Ford and Martin Sheen saying &qu...Here are <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNtkxg5Qhn8%22" rel="nofollow">Harrison Ford and Martin Sheen saying "Colonel Kurtz"</a> (skip to 0:38 and 3:12).Leohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04023787332836734901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-67983540464184778282011-02-14T10:56:02.533+00:002011-02-14T10:56:02.533+00:00Leonard Cohen (Canadian) in his song
Dance me to t...Leonard Cohen (Canadian) in his song<br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zjLBWnZGTU" rel="nofollow">Dance me to the end of love</a> rhymed <i>love</i> with <i>dove</i>, <i>above</i>, <i>of</i> and <i>glove</i> consecutively. Apparently he couldn't find any use for <i>shove</i>.<br />It seems like Shakespeare had an easier job, being able to compose this couplet (Sonnet 116):<br /><i>If this be error and upon me proved,<br> I never writ, nor no man ever loved.</i><br />According to David Crystal, both words ended with <b>-ɤv</b>, so it was a perfect rhyme.nulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494147304810924312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-58269348094637120342011-02-14T10:50:01.015+00:002011-02-14T10:50:01.015+00:00And this from My Fair Lady
You want to talk of Ke...And this from <i>My Fair Lady</i><br /><br /><i>You want to talk of Keats or Milton, she only wants to talk of <b>love</b><br />You go to see a play or ballet, and spend it searching for her <b>glove</b></i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-16657842268070962572011-02-14T10:48:55.293+00:002011-02-14T10:48:55.293+00:00David's version of 'She was poor but she w...David's version of 'She was poor but she was honest' is the only one I have ever come across. I'm not sure John is serious about the versions he links to. "What is she a-doin' of?" gets c 4350 google hits (which as far as I have bothered to look are all versions of 'She was poor but she was honest'), including online versions of The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, tho my 1981 edition doesn't seem to have it.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.com