tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post142958421451451473..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: the luv u givJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-55535950992557086862015-12-01T02:51:07.457+00:002015-12-01T02:51:07.457+00:00That distinction is not found in American EnglishThat distinction is not found in American EnglishAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-6987803097766835602015-12-01T02:48:21.953+00:002015-12-01T02:48:21.953+00:00Wow. You read "accurate" so that the las...Wow. You read "accurate" so that the last syllable rhymes with rat? The last syllable generally contains a schwa.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-63518262652946439162015-12-01T02:45:12.180+00:002015-12-01T02:45:12.180+00:00That distinction is not found in American EnglishThat distinction is not found in American EnglishAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-4544589877732630072010-09-16T16:59:52.877+01:002010-09-16T16:59:52.877+01:00army,
So why didn't the pair of you say "...army,<br />So why didn't the pair of you say "the reason why Chinese characters ARE used in Japan long long after the native kana system was invented" and on a vaster scale that they have been in Korean. But "precisely" wouldn't have been the whole story: sets of homonyms disambiguated by about a hundred different kanji each make spelling reform a bit of a challenge! At least the Japanese have reformed the kanji more sensitively than the mainland Chinese.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-39939969397742803542010-09-16T13:30:45.799+01:002010-09-16T13:30:45.799+01:00@Alex Case: I was going to say that!@Alex Case: <em>I</em> was going to say that!army1987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-86696855365358853072010-09-16T11:16:03.221+01:002010-09-16T11:16:03.221+01:00See now http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/201...See now http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2010/09/english_spelling_reform .John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-53944538761491587022010-09-16T02:16:33.980+01:002010-09-16T02:16:33.980+01:00As for spelling reform, I envision an eventual mel...As for spelling reform, I envision an eventual melting-pot future where Future English finally abandons our clunky alphabet-only script in favour of a modified Future Simplified Chinese script using primarily logograms, with a versatile <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo" rel="nofollow">bopomofo</a>-derived <i>arufabetto</i> thrown in to spell out names and to be used in all foreign languages.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-53762269293513877832010-09-15T22:14:48.010+01:002010-09-15T22:14:48.010+01:00"But if you insist that is a good reason for ..."But if you insist that is a good reason for retaining archaic spelling, let's start using hanzi, shall we?"<br /><br />That is precisely the reason why Chinese characters were used in Korea long long after the native hangeul system was inventedAlex Casehttp://wwwtefl.net/alexcasenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-85374154621019945592010-09-15T18:08:04.250+01:002010-09-15T18:08:04.250+01:00James D, here is the comment Kilian Hekhuis and I ...James D, here is the comment Kilian Hekhuis and I were referring to:<br /><br /><i>The pronunciation of one that uses the LOT vowel /ɒ/ is, as far as I'm aware, only used in Northern England. (And even there it varies from person to person; some use the STRUT vowel /ʊ/, while others use the LOT vowel /ɒ/).</i>Jongseonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12558136756392729306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-78644834998665477102010-09-15T14:44:10.571+01:002010-09-15T14:44:10.571+01:00No, Jongseong, I was not making my comment about n...No, Jongseong, I was not making my comment about northern England. Virtually all of the people I grew up around had the FOOT-STRUT and BATH-TRAP splits. The main distinctly non-southern features were the absence (and sometimes non-acceptance) of <a href="http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/estuary/cockneyf.htm" rel="nofollow">the variants John mentions at 3.2, 3.3, and 3.5 here</a>. I don't know what one would wish to term this variety of English, but it definitely would be misleading to classify it as Northern based upon a single word. I think Kilian got his attribution confused.James Dowdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11058389162481491681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-1357926767969416432010-09-15T11:48:20.312+01:002010-09-15T11:48:20.312+01:00Paul
I don't think the BBC announcers' pr...Paul<br /><br />I don't think the BBC announcers' pronunciation of <i>estimate</i> is a matter of phonetic variation. Rather, I suggest that they make slips while reading from a script while under pressure.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-4811828955426334652010-09-15T10:07:23.503+01:002010-09-15T10:07:23.503+01:00For what it's worth, I'm a north(east)erne...For what it's worth, I'm a north(east)erner with LOT in <i>one</i>. I have a couple of comments on other things in the post too. Firstly the mismatch between <i>luv</i> and <i>gone</i>: it seems to me that <i>luv</i> is becoming some sort of semi-standardised spelling (for particular registers) and people aren't consciously working out what a more consistent spelling system might be, so the innovation is no more consistent than what it replaces. <i>Bitz</i>, of course is further away from the phonetics than is the standard spelling of that word - but in these registers it seems that the [s]/[z] phonetic alternation is sometimes turning up as <i>z</i> rather than the standard <i>s</i>. No more or less consistent than the standard in this case. I'd also argue that <i>2</i> (for <i>to</i>) isn't really phonetically helpful since <i>to</i> can be [tuː] but is more often [tə], whereas I don't think <i>two</i> is ever [tə]. But then I'm the sort of person who uses semi-colons in text messages.<br /><br />On the <i>moderate/separate</i> issue: I've heard on the BBC news recently quite a few instances of the verb <i>estimate</i> with [ə] in the final syllable (as in the noun). So even there, spelling reform might run up against phonetic variation. It's true that I've never heard <i>give</i> as [ɡaɪv], though!Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-53585874311482869262010-09-15T09:30:31.566+01:002010-09-15T09:30:31.566+01:00I see it as a show of intimacy, too. Love letters ...I see it as a show of intimacy, too. Love letters are often written that way. It's comparable to the use of baby talk: "Wuv oo." "Gone but never forgotten" is for the public, hence spelled normally.<br /><br />And in 50 years in California, I've *never* heard "pittsa." FLEECE vowel, definitely.Juliehttp://www.julieannmaahs.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-37403321171535292052010-09-15T09:17:05.748+01:002010-09-15T09:17:05.748+01:00Kilian Hekhuis, note that James D was making his c...Kilian Hekhuis, note that James D was making his comment about the pronunciation in Northern England, where many people indeed have /ʌ/ as the STRUT vowel as their speech varieties didn't go through the FOOT-STRUT split.Jongseonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12558136756392729306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-34695241592870193092010-09-15T09:00:19.001+01:002010-09-15T09:00:19.001+01:00@James D: "some use the STRUT vowel /ʊ/"...@James D: "some use the STRUT vowel /ʊ/" - that's not the STRUT vowel of course, the STRUT vowel is /ʌ/.<br /><br />@Mano Zezez: "The irrationality of the English spelling system has a certain social function because the difficulty of learning it is precisely what makes it an indicator of a person's education level." - I disagree, English spelling is not *that* difficult. But if you insist that is a good reason for retaining archaic spelling, let's start using hanzi, shall we?Kilian Hekhuishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01084720179158650652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-87301432144383014622010-09-15T02:10:32.048+01:002010-09-15T02:10:32.048+01:00John W
Nothing in my copy of LPD. Did you add it ...John W<br /><br />Nothing in my copy of LPD. Did you add it in a later edition? In the first edition <b>wɒn</b> gets a dagger.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-21664160795047090062010-09-15T01:52:40.332+01:002010-09-15T01:52:40.332+01:00I agree that the spelling in the memorial message ...I agree that the spelling in the memorial message was chosen deliberately to sound intimate. It certainly has that effect reading itAlex Casehttp://www.tefl.net/alexcasenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-27484355796582763292010-09-14T23:58:36.151+01:002010-09-14T23:58:36.151+01:00I'm sort of a bit sad that no one has consulte...I'm sort of a bit sad that no one has consulted LPD on the subject of <i>one</i>. There you will find a pie chart and a graph showing the findings of my preference survey of <b>wʌn</b> vs. <b>wɒn</b>.<br />The STRUT vowel predominates in all age groups in BrE, and is of course the only possibility in AmE.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-8478139955136008542010-09-14T23:16:02.536+01:002010-09-14T23:16:02.536+01:00That's the consequence of the effects of techn...That's the consequence of the effects of technology in the way people speak and write (Twitter is a good example). Maybe, by 2510, our descendants will think that our English is weird and complex by the same reason why 16th century English is hard to understand for us.Nicolas F.A. Buronhttp://twitter.com/NicolasFABuronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-28683766598553144232010-09-14T23:01:50.192+01:002010-09-14T23:01:50.192+01:00"One" has LOT in popular Irish speech; D..."One" has LOT in popular Irish speech; Daniel Corkery:<br /><br />'if yourself and herself died on the wan day on me, I'd get a notice in the paper for the same money as if it was only one of ye in it.'<br /><br />The same spellings one/wan and pronunciationS STRUT/LOT can mean "woman" (e.g. "yer wan", "oul one"); I'm not sure if this is from extending the sense of pronoun "one" or reducing pronunciation of "woman".mollymoolynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-51465685764274259742010-09-14T21:49:41.665+01:002010-09-14T21:49:41.665+01:00@ David Crosbie: people in the North of England us...@ David Crosbie: people in the North of England use "gud" as txt speak for "good". I presume that people in the South of England don't do that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-76612936604490148902010-09-14T21:05:38.895+01:002010-09-14T21:05:38.895+01:00If we mess with one and won, we'll end up with...If we mess with <i>one</i> and <i>won</i>, we'll end up with the same spelling for <i>son</i> and <i>sun</i>.<br /><br />I have another problem with <i>u</i>, though I have no rational defence for it. For me, <i>luv</i> is a plausible representation of 'southern' <b>lʌv</b> but not of 'northern' <b>lʊv</b>. Silly, I know.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-25082160533088529492010-09-14T20:48:02.568+01:002010-09-14T20:48:02.568+01:00I always hear "pizza" with FLEECE in Cal...I always hear "pizza" with FLEECE in California. Although it's possible that I am biased by my expectations...vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-85668181030747970972010-09-14T20:39:32.178+01:002010-09-14T20:39:32.178+01:00Pizza is the other way around: Americans prefer pi...<i>Pizza</i> is the other way around: Americans prefer pittsa, and this side of the ocean it's typically peetsa, isn't it?Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-91005341540910580302010-09-14T20:32:21.745+01:002010-09-14T20:32:21.745+01:00@ Lipman: I think that's just one person's...@ Lipman: I think that's just one person's opinion. Virtually all BBC presenters use the STRUT vowel in "one".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com