tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post164770374868685436..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: what the L?John Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-11686295219511725022020-10-14T09:44:12.270+01:002020-10-14T09:44:12.270+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Sajal Gourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17156114339173670418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-51587509302400743652011-10-07T07:04:50.721+01:002011-10-07T07:04:50.721+01:00Ad Sidney Wood
thank you for the answer to my que...Ad Sidney Wood<br /><br />thank you for the answer to my question, Sidney.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-67309812306585756762011-10-06T22:58:57.304+01:002011-10-06T22:58:57.304+01:00Wojciech asked me about skipping linking r by inse...Wojciech asked me about skipping linking r by inserting a pause in "Far East" for contrastive emphasis (2 Oct).<br /><br />I don't believe I do that. I know it's reported in the literature, and it's possibly a trick of rhetoric that some people might teach or learn. I suspect my usual way of contrasting, say, Far East with Middle East would be by intonation, shifting the prominence back to Far. That wouldn't affect the linking r.Sidney Woodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01138711082469220983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-25934732428201188912011-10-04T12:52:32.623+01:002011-10-04T12:52:32.623+01:00Indeed, I have not a flap but a /d/ followed by a ...Indeed, I have not a flap but a /d/ followed by a syllabic /l/ (not even a /d/ with lateral plosion) in <i>subtle</i>, so <i>suddle</i> would be an excellent spelling for me: it rhymes precisely with <i>muddle</i>.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-45947441477023807532011-10-03T18:15:47.037+01:002011-10-03T18:15:47.037+01:00@mallamb:
There are many speakers for whom the /d...@mallamb:<br /><br />There are many speakers for whom the /d/-/t/ opposition is completely suspended. For evidence, try a Google search for "very suddle".vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-45148176938571495272011-10-03T12:02:09.309+01:002011-10-03T12:02:09.309+01:00Couldn't agree more, especially when some dict...Couldn't agree more, especially when some dictionaries use d instead of the flapped t. Do they not realize that by giving that as "the AmE pronunciation" they are asserting that there is total suspension of distinctive function in these cases, with no allophone distinct from /d/?mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-64701201940730807662011-10-03T11:16:14.163+01:002011-10-03T11:16:14.163+01:00I do think we should give more importance to the p...I do think we should give more importance to the phonetic transcription. MW Learner's dictionary does not bother with dark L (we can assume generalized dark L is okay in General American), but it does not bother with flapped T's either. Why should we indicate the flap T pronunciation while ignoring the dark L pronunciation?Pianomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15648008088325003262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-29906831783828509212011-10-02T15:13:39.156+01:002011-10-02T15:13:39.156+01:00Ad Sidney Wood
'On the other hand, non-rhotic...Ad Sidney Wood<br /><br />'On the other hand, non-rhotic, I always link r across a word boundary: far away, more ale etc. So I always link the r in Far East, whether or not there's an intended contrast' <br /><br />but suppose you would like to insert a pause between 'far' and 'east' --- to mark a really stark contrast between the Far East and some other east or easts --- would you then not say 'fah --- pause --- east' rather than 'fah -- linking r -- east'?Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-61425238949723493002011-10-02T06:14:25.735+01:002011-10-02T06:14:25.735+01:00"If milk is pronounced mɪɫk, why do we write ...<b>"If milk is pronounced mɪɫk, why do we write it as mɪlk?"</b><br /><br />If this is the only issue, surely we can save time and simply guide students to the basic differences of phonetic and phonemic systems. But be that as it may, the interaction between the phonetic and phonemic level of a particular language can be endlessly nuanced and fascinating.<br /><br />I use solely dark l's in English, like John reports above, so I hadn't been conscious of a dialectal "interlinking clear l" in <i>Middle East</i>. I learn something new.<br /><br />(By the way, this discussion is of a more respectable quality than the homophobic comments witnessed beforehand. Thanks for getting back on track. Let's keep it that way.)Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-19667912298216915422011-10-01T05:45:51.083+01:002011-10-01T05:45:51.083+01:00dirck: Yeah, I've heard that kind of pronunci...dirck: Yeah, I've heard that kind of pronunciation (the kind in your example) from other Americans so it doesn't sound too weird to me. It kind of sounds like your dorsum is hitting your velum to me. I remember you mentioning that on here before.<br /><br />As for l-vocalization, do you really consider that to be non-standard outside of Philly?yuriivehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03558374848664262968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-23472859731748987782011-10-01T03:50:48.260+01:002011-10-01T03:50:48.260+01:00In contrast to Sidney, in words with /dl/, like &q...In contrast to Sidney, in words with /dl/, like "middle", I don't always use dark L because I simply release the /d/ laterally, producing the normal palatalised /l/. This moves the syllable boundary back: "mi.dl". I would say I do this about 50% of the time when nothing follows the /dl/, more preceding a vowel, less preceding a consonant.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01773966173117509466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-77007934366130039082011-09-30T22:59:59.938+01:002011-09-30T22:59:59.938+01:00Beatrice:
For what it's worth, my syllabic l ...Beatrice:<br /><br />For what it's worth, my syllabic l at the end of middle, waddle etc is dark (but not vocalised as it is in mild, walled etc). It stays dark across word boundaries: middle of nowhere, waddle about. But it brightens across an internal morpheme boundary: middling, waddling.<br /><br />On the other hand, non-rhotic, I always link r across a word boundary: far away, more ale etc. So I always link the r in Far East, whether or not there's an intended contrast.Sidney Woodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01138711082469220983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-25242952994254377312011-09-30T18:22:14.763+01:002011-09-30T18:22:14.763+01:00@ John Cowan: Hi, John!
@ dirk: I'm afraid I c...@ John Cowan: Hi, John!<br />@ dirk: I'm afraid I can't understand the example.<br />@ everybody: I promise to be quiet for a while.Beatrice Portinarihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13626472955669713053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-31209385674687823272011-09-30T17:30:01.310+01:002011-09-30T17:30:01.310+01:00Might as well begin some (lateral?) topic drift:
M...Might as well begin some (lateral?) topic drift:<br />My /l/ is theoretically always-dark, like many Americans, but I had difficulty as a child with liquids /w, l, r/, and I'm still self-conscious about /l/ in particular. My production of can vary from near-vocalization* in the coda to a prevocalic dark-L with velarization (or pharyngealization?) so strong there can be a hint of a plosive <a href="http://www.forvo.com/search/lenexa/" rel="nofollow">(here's sort of an example)</a>. Is this otherwise attested?<br /><br />*I'm not from Philly, so this is nonstandard—but it does give me a certain fondness for Polish and Brazilian Portuguese.Dirckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01042165614834628133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-24176534454329372552011-09-30T16:40:10.460+01:002011-09-30T16:40:10.460+01:00For me all these distinctions are as nothing, for ...For me all these distinctions are as nothing, for I pronounce all dark /l/, all the time. As for <i>fiddling</i>, it is always [ˈfɪdɫ̩ɪŋ] and never [ˈfɪdɫɪŋ], which would be <i>*fidling</i>, rhyming with <i>kidling</i>.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-45022118725153979422011-09-30T13:12:54.678+01:002011-09-30T13:12:54.678+01:00@ teardrop: You took the words out of my mouth.
T...@ teardrop: You took the words out of my mouth.<br /><br />Thank you.Beatrice Portinarihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13626472955669713053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-33080546165003536292011-09-30T13:09:52.202+01:002011-09-30T13:09:52.202+01:00Nice explanation, Wojciech; yes that sounds quite ...Nice explanation, Wojciech; yes that sounds quite plausible. So let's forget about the "r" and concentrate on the "l" -I was right then!Beatrice Portinarihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13626472955669713053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-85595674170936923612011-09-30T13:03:26.788+01:002011-09-30T13:03:26.788+01:00Contrastive meaning or emphasis is often expresse...Contrastive meaning or emphasis is often expressed by inserting pauses before and/or after the word, at least in our minds. In the actual flow of speech these pauses may get omitted, but by the time we get to <i>not</i> pronounce the pause, we've already pronounced a dark l, and we can't go back to make it a clear l, so we end up having a vowel following a dark l.<br /><i>Far East</i> is a bit different, because in isolation (i.e. before a pause), non-rhotic speakers don't have the [r] at the end of <i>Far</i>, but if the pause doesn't get realized, the [r] can easily appear between the two vowels. Phonetically there's no difference between a linking and an intrusive r.teardrophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08558731895978834662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-53112043415431317162011-09-30T12:52:46.975+01:002011-09-30T12:52:46.975+01:00I'd think a person who says 'not the Far E...I'd think a person who says 'not the Far East, but the Midd[ɫ̩] East' is treating 'Far East' as one word, with a perfectly normal linking r (if that person be non-rhotic, that is)and only afterwards, in the process of speaking, breaks it up in the 'Far' and the 'East' component, to contrast its designate with another thing, called 'Middle East', which name has the same second component. This decomposition has no effect on the (now past and bygone, even if just a nanosecond ago) pronunciation of 'Far East', but only on that (to happen in another nanosecond) of 'Middle East', turning it to 'Middł East'.<br /><br />That's what I'd think, as a layman. Of course, there are pedantic or let us say conscientious persons, who say:<br /><br />... not in the Fa-r-East, uhm, sorry, I mean FAH East, --- with emphasis on 'far', are you getting me? --- but, much rather, in the MIDDLE (middł) East... (and possibly even in the NEEAH East)<br /><br />but such persons are rather rare, methinketh.<br /><br />So sorry, Beatrix, but I'd side with John on this point.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-71276330040532839552011-09-30T12:16:30.121+01:002011-09-30T12:16:30.121+01:00Sidney, John:
That particular "l" is dar...Sidney, John:<br />That particular "l" is dark because "Middle" is thought of by the speaker as an isolated word, contrasting with the equally isolated "Far". So, if you are not a rhotic speaker, the [r] you use (in this particular context, I must insist) cannot be, by definition, a "perfectly normal linking r".Beatrice Portinarihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13626472955669713053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-43531325436187044542011-09-30T11:59:29.032+01:002011-09-30T11:59:29.032+01:00Then your explanation (which you haven't actua...Then your explanation (which you haven't actually given us) must be wrong. I pronounce a perfectly normal linking r in <i>Far East</i>.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-44251522079288268532011-09-30T11:59:26.686+01:002011-09-30T11:59:26.686+01:00Beatrice Portinari wrote:
"And if you do pron...Beatrice Portinari wrote:<br />"And if you do pronounce that [r], I will not consider it a legitimate but an INTRUSIVE one" <br /><br />Why?Sidney Woodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01138711082469220983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-15657284847415411712011-09-30T11:42:13.321+01:002011-09-30T11:42:13.321+01:00And if you do pronounce that [r], I will not consi...And if you do pronounce that [r], I will not consider it a legitimate but an INTRUSIVE one.Beatrice Portinarihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13626472955669713053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-91638996006535309522011-09-30T11:33:50.559+01:002011-09-30T11:33:50.559+01:00Now that I think about it, would you pronounce the...Now that I think about it, would you pronounce the [r] in "not the Far East, but..."? (You should NOT do it, in order to be consistent with the explanation I have made up for the dark "l" in Middle East.)Beatrice Portinarihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13626472955669713053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-86089419024333429362011-09-30T10:20:08.055+01:002011-09-30T10:20:08.055+01:00A rhetorical "Why?", I suppose.A rhetorical "Why?", I suppose.Beatrice Portinarihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13626472955669713053noreply@blogger.com