tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post2615101606350629429..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: initial clustersJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-11990796311757237182011-10-23T11:25:14.761+01:002011-10-23T11:25:14.761+01:00Angr pointed out that Irish /j/ is usually a frica...Angr pointed out that Irish /j/ is usually a fricative before consonants (and replaced the example on Wikipedia) -- still, my point about being surprised by that thing even though I knew a very similar thing in Spanish still stands. (Some say that Spanish /g/ is a fricative too, but with some speakers I can barely hear the /g/ in <i>negra</i> at all, let alone hear friction.)army1987https://www.blogger.com/profile/01166052755101226806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-18951768829847053312011-10-22T01:39:37.733+01:002011-10-22T01:39:37.733+01:00Clusters such as word-initial vɣ are not difficult...<i>Clusters such as word-initial vɣ are not difficult, once you have mastered ɣ, but can seem very strange to speakers of other languages — all except those familiar with French, where initial vr vʁ is found in such everyday words as vrai ‘true’.</i><br /><br />I was totally like "WTF?" when I first saw the entry [ˈjɾʲamˠə] (Irish <i>ghreamaigh</i> ‘stuck’) in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatal_approximant, but then again, Spanish <i>gran</i> is [ɰɾan] post-vocalically, isn't it?army1987https://www.blogger.com/profile/01166052755101226806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-33814372084899243822011-10-21T23:38:33.222+01:002011-10-21T23:38:33.222+01:00Speaking of funky consonant clusters, I'd lik...Speaking of funky consonant clusters, I'd like to throw in http://strcstskrzkrk.com or 'scvrnkls' - an actual Czech word - although they may not be that 'remarkable' phonotactically.Dominik Lukešhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03071876778771965740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-59700101555029839082011-10-21T02:30:41.558+01:002011-10-21T02:30:41.558+01:00It rather looks as if you do have an explanation f...It rather looks as if you do have an explanation for those forms. What you have pointed out with θέλω - ήθελα reflects the case of augment ἐ + initial ἐ giving ἠ in spite of aphesis in other forms of the verb even in Classical Greek, where θέλω was already established alongside ἐθέλω, but the only perfect was ἠθέληκα, preserving the aphesis-prone ἐ. Even when it disappears completely in Modern Greek, and there is no *εξέρω, the η persists in ήξερα, preserving the ghostly ε- in ξέρω and it looks to me as if it's even on the right side of the xi! It also looks as if it outlived the υ lost by analogy with φέρω or χαίρω, which is a bit worrying. Perhaps ἐξερῶ ekserô ‘I will speak out’ might after all have been the etymology.<br /><br />Of course where they have to respell the aphetic form, as in βρήκα, there's no longer even the possibility of an archaizing ηύρα.<br /> <br />I take it ἐξεύρηκα has not in fact survived in any form. (Always supposing you found ξεὕρηκα legible – that's what comes of pasting bits with illegible jots and tittles, but we all seem to have been playing fast and loose with the breathings. I have tried to keep them for classical forms and lose them for modern, whether real or imaginary!)mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-79474493557649532842011-10-20T21:28:58.419+01:002011-10-20T21:28:58.419+01:00There is the odd fact that the past is not έξερα b...There is the odd fact that the past is not έξερα but ήξερα. The eta reminds one of the one in εὕρηκα but it's on the wrong side of the xi.<br /><br />On the other hand, besides the regular βρήκα I believe I've also seen a form ήβρα, which also has the eta at the beginning.<br /><br />I don't have an explanation for those forms, though.<br /><br />(Another verb which has an eta at the beginning in the aorist is θέλω - ήθελα, but I believe this has its roots in Ancient Greek already: if I remember correctly, the verb was εθέλω and so the augment was eta.)Philip Newtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17991519523477002229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-22890267037415177732011-10-20T19:24:05.384+01:002011-10-20T19:24:05.384+01:00I thought there might be some such Sprachgefühl, b...I thought there might be some such Sprachgefühl, but analogy with verbs like φέρω or χαίρω is pretty convincing, isn't it? And it might be only by comparison with ξέρω that ξεύρω seems archaizing! A bit circular, what? Anyone feel uncomfortable with εύρω, apart from considerations of the Euro crisis? Has the etymology left any other consciousness-raising traces such as ξεὕρηκα?mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-13135856868325998902011-10-20T17:26:41.666+01:002011-10-20T17:26:41.666+01:00Well, I'm no expert, I'm just copying what...Well, I'm no expert, I'm just copying what I read in the Babiniotis Dictionary: ξεύρω became ξέρω due to analogy with verbs like φέρω or χαίρω and because the type ξεύρω sounded archaic (not much, if you ask me). The Triantafyllidis Institute Dictionary gives another, rather awkward explanation: perhaps the v sound was rejected in phrases with consecutive v sounds, like ξεύρεις βρε "well, you know". <br /><br />Seems like they're stuck with the least bad of the possible etymologies.Αθ. Αναγνωστoπουλοςhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904061432127941513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-87845586497641475542011-10-20T16:30:49.623+01:002011-10-20T16:30:49.623+01:00Sorry about ξέρω error: now corrected. On its etym...Sorry about ξέρω error: now corrected. On its etymology, you may well be right, but as mallamb says there is then the question of what happened to the /v/. It remains in εὕρηκα → ˈvrika 'I have found'.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-45372309131181887242011-10-20T15:23:25.797+01:002011-10-20T15:23:25.797+01:00Philip and Ἀθανάσιο??
How does the εξεύρω etymolo...Philip and Ἀθανάσιο??<br /><br />How does the εξεύρω etymology account for its not being ξεύρω [ˈksevro] in Modern?mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-12131036405828154302011-10-20T12:05:40.560+01:002011-10-20T12:05:40.560+01:00τκ- is also phonotactically impossible - as are τπ...τκ- is also phonotactically impossible - as are τπ- and δβ-, though the reverse pairs, πτ- and βδ- are allowed.<br /><br />On the third hand, none of πκ- κπ- γβ- are allowed... even though βγ- is, with both pronunciations of gamma! (At least in Modern Greek.)Philip Newtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17991519523477002229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-10091073503743527852011-10-20T11:58:19.904+01:002011-10-20T11:58:19.904+01:00Are you positiv about the εξερώ thing? I looked it...Are you positiv about the εξερώ thing? I looked it up in the two major greek dictionaries and both give the εξεύρω etymology. <br /><br />"No parallel metathesis seems to have happened to γδ- from classical ἐκδ-."<br /><br />A main reason should be that δγ- is ungrammatical in greek.Αθ. Αναγνωστoπουλοςhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904061432127941513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-29389033829037596672011-10-20T10:33:02.851+01:002011-10-20T10:33:02.851+01:00I find it interesting how this has obscured parall...I find it interesting how this has obscured parallel words, especially in the pair μπαίνω <i>|mpaíno| béno</i> <b>ˈbeno</b> "go in, enter" - βγαίνω <i>|bgaíno| vyéno</i> <b>ˈvʝeno</b> "go out, leave".<br /><br />In the original, they were clearly parallel (ἐμβαίνω < ἐν- "in" + βαίνω "go", with assimilation of POA; ἐκβαίνω < ἐκ- "out" + βαίνω "go"), but subsequent aphaeresis and metathesis in only one of the two has obscured the relationship.<br /><br />Incidentally, modern Greek "to know" is stressed on the first syllable: ξέρω <i>kséro</i> <b>ˈksero</b>. And I always thought its etymology was from Ancient ἐξεύρω <i>ekseúrō</i>, the aorist of <a href="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*e%3Aentry+group%3D148%3Aentry%3De%29ceuri%2Fskw" rel="nofollow">ἐξευρίσκω</a> <i>ekseurískō</i> "find out, discover".Philip Newtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17991519523477002229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-42187968092391823762011-10-20T10:19:40.921+01:002011-10-20T10:19:40.921+01:00True. Don't start about chrząszcz brzmi w Szcz...True. Don't start about <i>chrząszcz brzmi w Szczebrzeszynie</i>.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-29290826052049484592011-10-20T09:57:45.382+01:002011-10-20T09:57:45.382+01:00Slavic languages have some complex onsets, too; Po...Slavic languages have some complex onsets, too; Polish in particular... ;)wjarekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07871668374161722713noreply@blogger.com