tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post3146320352983981603..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: a nice iceJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-2378711008792393552010-09-05T22:00:44.726+01:002010-09-05T22:00:44.726+01:00That reminds me of the time (anecdote alert!) that...That reminds me of the time (anecdote alert!) that I visited a church in Edinburgh. After the service I was telling a local woman that I had a week off, for which she offered to fetch a glass of water.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-88746029725193686952010-09-04T23:51:02.613+01:002010-09-04T23:51:02.613+01:00Yes garage is ˈgærɑːʒ or ˈgærɑːdʒ for me. Lots of ...Yes <i>garage</i> is <b>ˈgærɑːʒ</b> or <b>ˈgærɑːdʒ</b> for me. Lots of people in Briatain say <b>ˈgærɪdʒ</b>, however. But I'm pretty sure most people say <b>ˈbærɑːʒ</b> or <b>ˈbærɑːdʒ</b> for <i>barrage</i>. John gives both in his LPD, and I suspect that British non-RP speakers generally follow suit.<br /><br />(My accent is RP or near-RP, depending on your criteria.)David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-90019937008805040912010-09-04T22:36:02.036+01:002010-09-04T22:36:02.036+01:00@army1987: In my own Massachusetts dialect, "...@army1987: In my own Massachusetts dialect, "narrate" [ˈnæreɪt]; in RP, "garage" [ˈgærɑːʒ].Lazar Taxonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13221219358689771815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-52233694614724443222010-09-04T22:16:06.266+01:002010-09-04T22:16:06.266+01:00@army1987:
BTW, my impression is that /ær er ʌr/ ...@army1987:<br /><br /><i>BTW, my impression is that /ær er ʌr/ etc., can only occur immediately before a syllabic consonant or a weak vowel (counting final unstressed GOAT as weak); are there any counterexamples?</i><br /><br />I think that to some extent that's true of TRAP, DRESS and STRUT in general, whether or not followed by /r/. I haven't really thought this through, though.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-13290750017455228252010-09-04T19:02:39.300+01:002010-09-04T19:02:39.300+01:00BTW, my impression is that /ær er ʌr/ etc., can on...BTW, my impression is that /ær er ʌr/ etc., can only occur immediately before a syllabic consonant or a weak vowel (counting final unstressed GOAT as weak); are there any counterexamples?army1987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-19824740901724541932010-09-04T18:50:48.503+01:002010-09-04T18:50:48.503+01:00Shouldn't we conclude from this that the phono...<i>Shouldn't we conclude from this that the phonotactic constraints on syllables cannot be the same as those on monosyllabic words?</i><br />Indeed (also ʒ can occur in polysyllables but, excluding loanwords, not in monosyllables, etc.). And IMO this would be a better justification for allowing /petr.@l/ than "you can get /tr/ in <i>matter</i> in phrases such as <i>matter of fact</i>".army1987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-55411644524616565622010-09-04T07:34:38.269+01:002010-09-04T07:34:38.269+01:00So there are two of us here? Okay. I didn't as...So there are two of us here? Okay. I didn't ask that question, but I thought it anyway.Juliehttp://www.julieannmaahs.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-85345610367046839122010-09-04T04:30:08.046+01:002010-09-04T04:30:08.046+01:00@ Julie (continued): And not for David Attenborou...@ Julie (continued): And not for David Attenborough either according to one of our posters (he is born before 1942, so that makes sense).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-44136244016617780892010-09-04T04:27:46.169+01:002010-09-04T04:27:46.169+01:00@ Julie: Not for John Wells or for 68% of BrE (Bri...@ Julie: Not for John Wells or for 68% of BrE (British English) respondents born before 1942. See the pie chart in LPD (Longman Pronunciation Dictionary).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-89708681361248781942010-09-04T04:24:14.806+01:002010-09-04T04:24:14.806+01:00Isn't Asian pronounced with a VOICED post-alve...Isn't Asian pronounced with a VOICED post-alveolar fricative? At least that's the way I pronounce it... in careful speech, anyhow...Julienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-13075837294561489242010-09-04T00:46:09.560+01:002010-09-04T00:46:09.560+01:00@JW:
How would you syllabify words like "m...@JW: <br /><br />How would you syllabify words like "marry", "merry", , "sorry", "hurry"? <br /><br />I looked at your article on <a href="http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/syllabif.htm" rel="nofollow">Syllabification and allophony</a>.<br /><br />If "marry" is syllabified as /'mær.i/, then you seem to violated the constraint that "phonotactic constraints on syllable structure (as established with reference to monosyllables) are not violated". Even postulating that linking/intrusive R is in the syllable coda, there are still no examples of monosyllablic words ending in /ær/.<br /><br />If, on the other hand, "marry" is syllabified as /'mæ.ri/, then another phonotactive constraint has been violated, since there is no monosyllablic word ending in /æ/.<br /><br />Shouldn't we conclude from this that the phonotactic constraints on syllables cannot be the same as those on monosyllabic words?vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-31244653671393725212010-09-03T23:40:50.926+01:002010-09-03T23:40:50.926+01:00As John was posting, my thoughts on an intrusive-r...As John was posting, my thoughts on an intrusive-r example were swallowed into the ether. From memory, what I wrote was this:<br /><br />I can imaging inventing a circular bar fitting for opening drawers and calling it a <b>draw ring</b>. I would not make it sound like my intrusive-r pronunciation of <b>drawing</b>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-28219934675030363012010-09-03T23:26:21.442+01:002010-09-03T23:26:21.442+01:00...and the proof of that is the minimal pairs we h......and the proof of that is the minimal pairs we had two or three days ago, e.g. <i>more ice</i> <b>mɔːr aɪs</b> (syllable-final r) vs. <i>more rice</i> <b>mɔː raɪs</b> (syllable-initial r). Linking r is in my view always syllable-final. The defining characteristic of a non-rhotic pronunciation is not that /r/ must be syllable-initial, but that /r/ is always followed by a vowel sound.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-71576422111789985602010-09-03T22:47:58.311+01:002010-09-03T22:47:58.311+01:00From what I remember, I'm not sure John agrees...From what I remember, I'm not sure John agrees with you one that - I'm pretty sure I remember reading somewhere (in 'syllabification and allophony'?) that he considers linking R to be in the coda. And I often hear myself and others hesitating and leaving an /r/ dangling before deciding that what is to follow won't begin with a vowel after all.Paul Carleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-2817066824146816152010-09-03T21:51:08.129+01:002010-09-03T21:51:08.129+01:00@Anonymous:
No: linking R and intrusive R cannot...@Anonymous:<br /><br />No: linking R and intrusive R cannot be on the preceding syllable, because they only occur in non-rhotic acents. in such accents, by definition, /r/ can only occur syllable-initially.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-8758484716140929002010-09-03T20:46:50.527+01:002010-09-03T20:46:50.527+01:00JWL
Yes, that metanalysis sent orange back to its...JWL<br /><br />Yes, that metanalysis sent <i>orange</i> back to its old form in nineteenth century Scots <i>norringe</i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-29159527770536756082010-09-03T20:42:59.361+01:002010-09-03T20:42:59.361+01:00mollymooly
Yes, the Laura Norder mockers think th...mollymooly<br /><br />Yes, the <b>Laura Norder</b> mockers think they're being funny. We can only be accused of saying <b>Norder</b> when we speak so rapidly as to omit the <b>d</b> of <i>and</i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-20844194905029255492010-09-03T20:29:56.091+01:002010-09-03T20:29:56.091+01:00Are linking R and intrusive R on the preceding syl...Are linking R and intrusive R on the preceding syllable? I always wondered about that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-34534826955965945042010-09-03T19:10:47.250+01:002010-09-03T19:10:47.250+01:00This tendency to have final liaison consonants reg...This tendency to have final liaison consonants regularly resyllabified with a following initial vowel is characteristic of much of Scottish and Irish pronunciation.<br />Metanalysis caused by frequent ambiguities of these kinds have given us surnames like Nash, Noakes, Nalder and Noad and words like newt, nickname, nuncle and nonceword. They also account in reverse for our modern forms of adder, aitchbone, auger, apron & umpire and the familiar name forms Ned & Nell. Other Germanic languages have such forms eg Flemish has a name parallel to our Nightingale that doesnt begin with n.JWLhttp://www.yek.me.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-7323159317141293862010-09-03T18:41:49.371+01:002010-09-03T18:41:49.371+01:00LPD shows linking R on the preceding syllable
&q...LPD shows linking R on the preceding syllable <br /><br />"sore ache" <b>sɔːr eɪk</b><br /><br />"saw rake" <b>sɔː reɪk</b>mollymoolynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-41682696702529546122010-09-03T17:29:40.196+01:002010-09-03T17:29:40.196+01:00@ Ryan: Yes, just watch David Attenborough sometim...@ Ryan: Yes, just watch David Attenborough sometime. He uses that pronunciation. I know I keep bringing him up, but he does seem to use a lot of older pronunciations.Philnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-50241195668263171632010-09-03T16:56:27.059+01:002010-09-03T16:56:27.059+01:00And the way I say law and order is regularly mocke...And the way I say <i>law and order</i> is regularly mocked as <b>Laura Norder</b>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-14579387539356444292010-09-03T16:23:24.819+01:002010-09-03T16:23:24.819+01:00…which reflects the fact that another is pronounce...…which reflects the fact that <i>another</i> is pronounced <b>əˈnʌðə</b>, not *<b>ənˈʌðə</b>.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-48300825473637604492010-09-03T16:08:59.405+01:002010-09-03T16:08:59.405+01:00Then there's the phrase a whole nother ball ga...Then there's the phrase <i>a whole nother ball game</i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-62227603546723449172010-09-03T15:33:58.302+01:002010-09-03T15:33:58.302+01:00Very interesting about the pronunciation of Asian....Very interesting about the pronunciation of Asian. I never knew that was a pronunciation. As for "a nice" vs. "an ice", I'm pretty sure I don't make this distinction. This seems supported by the fact that in the Language Log post I was unable to guess what the syllabification was with greater than chance frequency.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13845139257399756782noreply@blogger.com