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And I'm not afraid to admit that I grew ...@Phil<br />And I'm not afraid to admit that I grew up only ever knowning the 'neesh' version and that I too thought that the Americans were up to something odd until I learnt better. The same goes for 'zebra' with FLEECE and 'Caribbean' with stress on the 2nd syllable. I sometimes point out to bigoted Brits that until relatively recently the UK (or at least RP) version was the same as the present US version. Which by lay logic would mean that we've done the 'spoiling', not the Americans.<br /><br />I believe there's a chapter by J Algeo in Bauer and Trudgill's 'Language Myths' devoted to the blame-it-on-the-Americans approach to language change. It's called 'America is ruining the English language'. I read the book a long time ago and no longer have a copy. Looks like an interesting piece. Shame I can't remember it!Paul Carleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-42270184009231295102011-02-26T03:53:44.567+00:002011-02-26T03:53:44.567+00:00@ Paul: I don't think you're trying to so...@ Paul: I don't think you're trying to sound superior. This pronunciation doesn't really annoy me <em>that</em> much. I tend to overuse the verb "annoy". I should try to choose my words more carefully in the future. <br /><br />"Perhaps this type of change has more annoyance potential because we might interpret it as the speaker putting on airs and graces - making a simple English word sound 'fancy'."<br /><br />Exactly. Of course I realize that this may not always be the case though.<br /><br />John Cowan wrote: "As for niche, I doubt if /niʃ/ is truly the predominant AmE pronunciation."<br /><br />Yes, I say /nɪtʃ/ and I'm not ashamed to admit that. I guess that makes me a stupid American.Philnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-45235616723330883382011-02-25T23:01:46.769+00:002011-02-25T23:01:46.769+00:00Probably, Steve, but you take my point, I trust.Probably, Steve, but you take my point, I trust.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-78737646305921167832011-02-25T22:45:00.310+00:002011-02-25T22:45:00.310+00:00Is -mɒːʒ a typo for -mɑːʒ in Wiktionary?Is <strong>-mɒːʒ</strong> a typo for <strong>-mɑːʒ</strong> in Wiktionary?Steve Doerrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11410868047916610730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-16054511393813485692011-02-25T19:46:33.366+00:002011-02-25T19:46:33.366+00:00Like John Cowan, I have the same dual pronunciati...Like John Cowan, I have the same dual pronunciation for homage, a version of Fr. hommage for the auteur stuff and a version accented on the first syllable for the feudal stuff.<br /><br />In NYC people have much more occasion use to the auteury meaning and pronunciation than the feudal version. <br /><br />People's body language generally makes clear that the word is not really part of their active vocabulary, but it's the way they would verbalize the concept if they spoke that way.nycguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02799769428539687855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-84776043231036695612011-02-25T19:44:35.654+00:002011-02-25T19:44:35.654+00:00John Cowan,
I hope that you will now be able to se...John Cowan,<br />I hope that you will now be able to see both my previous posts: as far as I too am concerned, there are now two separate words, but I don't think it's as simple as their both being spelled 'homage'. The older ˈɑmɪdʒ/ˈhɒmɪdʒ (and also long pronounced with the h, even in NAm), spelt 'homage' and (by lexicographical conventions at any rate) misspelt 'hommage', and the newer oʊˈmɑʒ, an unfortunately orotund pronunciation of ɔmɑːʒ or its usual Anglicizations, spelt 'hommage' and (again by lexicographical conventions at any rate) misspelt 'homage'.<br /><br />I see you pronounce nɪʃ as I do, but I also see that LPD3 doesn’t list it. I think that must be by an oversight, as it lists the plural with nɪʃ- for BrE.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-21363190985992709382011-02-25T19:41:21.544+00:002011-02-25T19:41:21.544+00:00The Wiktionary entry for 'homage' gives a ...The Wiktionary entry for 'homage' gives a link to a Ben Zimmer article 'Homage', "On Language", The New York Times, November 5, 2010. He gives an amusing quote from “The Accidents of Style,” Charles Harrington Elster, calling oʊˈmɑːʒ a “preposterous de-Anglicization” that is “becoming fashionable among the literati.” But what objection can there be to ɒˈmɑːʒ, ɔˈmɑːʒ etc for this French 'hommage' if only it is kept distinct and gets recognized by the dictionaries?<br /><br />LPD is usually on to anything of any consequence, so it would be nice to think that the fact that LPD3 only gives UK ˈhɒmɪdʒ (the only one in OED) and US ˈhɑːmɪdʒ for 'homage' means the modish alternatives for it will pass. Again like OED it has no entry for 'hommage'mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-19080194173638656022011-02-25T19:39:25.642+00:002011-02-25T19:39:25.642+00:00John Cowan,
My last post has for the third time do...John Cowan,<br />My last post has for the third time done one of the intermittent disappearing acts we see on here. I had devoted an absurd amount of research to it, and it's even more relevant in view of what you now write, so I will try again, in instalments. It was addressed to David Crosbie:<br /><br />David,<br />But what Adam Boulton meant was old-fashioned 'homage'. 'Hommage' is surely still quite inappropriate, As you imply yourself, the distinction has been well established for some time. So if he did add the h, he either added it to the wrong word, or mispronounced the -age of the right one, which to a lot of us does present a problem, however happy we are with ɑː(d)ʒ in 'garage' etc. <br /><br />What has happened is that it is the inappropriate pronunciation, rather than the spelling, that has "got out", as you put it, before this well-established distinction had even "got into" the dictionaries: 31 online dictionaries or encyclopaedias only list "homage" (Hutchinson even giving the alert "Spelling: note the single m"), most of them only recognizing the pronunciation ˈhɒmɪdʒ etc, ± ˈɑmɪdʒ for AmE, and NONE recognizing the Frenchified one. Urban Dictionary specifically reviles it. Only 7 online dictionaries or encyclopaedias list "hommage", most of them just redirecting to 'homage' or saying "alternative spelling of 'homage'". Wiktionary and Webster's New World College Dictionary, 4th Ed., both give your 'artistic sense" for hommage, the former with the pronunciation oʊˈmɒːʒ for it, as well as for 'homage' used in that sense. That pronunciation almost seems intended to parody the fanciness of both usages, and the improbability of any awareness that oʊˈmɒːʒ does not reflect the French spelling and pronunciation which determine that sense.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-53838180034623579442011-02-25T19:12:06.189+00:002011-02-25T19:12:06.189+00:00Ah, I think I see. So /niʃ/ is a popular innovati...Ah, I think I see. So /niʃ/ is a popular innovation in Britain, and AmE is retaining the older pronunciation? That would make more sense of Paul Carley's remark, to which I was responding.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-20934236498112900002011-02-25T16:59:24.620+00:002011-02-25T16:59:24.620+00:00@John Cowan: the suggestion is the other way round...@John Cowan: the suggestion is the other way round, that many British people say <b>niːʃ</b> and think of <b>nɪtʃ</b> as an Americanism. The OED (and this is an updated, third edition, entry) gives the FLEECE/fricative version first for BrE and the KIT/affricate version first for AmE. (The KIT/fricative version isn't listed for either.)<br /><br />(I say <b>niːʃ</b>.)JHJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03257258313943639485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-41217309353837142002011-02-25T16:47:49.836+00:002011-02-25T16:47:49.836+00:00As far as I am concerned, there are now two separa...As far as I am concerned, there are now two separate words spelled <i>homage</i>, the older /ˈɑmɪdʒ/, the feudal ritual and metaphorical versions of it, and the newer /oʊˈmɑʒ/, defined as David Crosbie does, but extended to all the arts, not just film. Neither of them has /h/.<br /><br />As for <i>niche</i>, I doubt if /niʃ/ is truly the predominant AmE pronunciation. All three of the main AmE dictionaries give /nɪtʃ/ as the preferred pronunciation. NID3 (as well as its descendant at m-w.com) gives both /nɪʃ/ and /niʃ/ as less favored alternatives; AHD4 gives /niʃ/; RHD2 gives neither. I suspect that Brits think of /niʃ/ as <i>the</i> AmE pronunciation because it is the most different and stands out the most. (My own pronunciation happens to be /nɪʃ/.)John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-59547905005702603342011-02-25T16:20:00.952+00:002011-02-25T16:20:00.952+00:00For anyone who'd like hear of one or two speci...For anyone who'd like hear of one or two specific observations rather than casual impressions, I may say that I believe I he·rd /`hɒmɑːʒ/ on 7 November 10 from Maureen Lipman and twice in the past month Alastaire Sooke the Daily Telegraph art critic (accent GB type) saying /hɒ`mɑːʒ/ while presenting BBC tv programs. He also has another (to me) unfamiliar usage in cadaver as /`kӕdəvə./JWLhttp://www.yek.me.uk/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-57352862477644912112011-02-25T14:42:21.902+00:002011-02-25T14:42:21.902+00:00When not discussing film, which I only do under gr...When not discussing film, which I only do under great provocation,I say['ɑmɪdʒ], but I'm 63. And a bit off topic, but this discussion is reminding me inevitably of the legendary UN translator who rendered "L'Afrique n'érige plus des autels aux dieux" as "Africa no longer builds horrible hotels." Rodger CAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-53599292911491397372011-02-25T14:32:32.196+00:002011-02-25T14:32:32.196+00:00@ Phil: At the risk of trying to sound superior, I...@ Phil: At the risk of trying to sound superior, I have to say that this changing pronuciation doesn't annoy me. If I got worked up about every pronunciation that wasn't the same as my own, the stress would kill me. <br /><br />Perhaps this type of change has more annoyance potential because we might interpret it as the speaker putting on airs and graces - making a simple English word sound 'fancy'.<br /><br />Being a relative youngster, I could predict that in a few years the situation will be the same as with 'niche' - people will be condemning the traditional British 'nitch' pronunciation as an awful Amercanism, because everybody knows it's supposed to be pronounced 'neesh'.<br /><br />It's a popular topic on youtube and commonly collocates with the phrase 'stupid Americans'. For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOLPrIBQVtc&feature=related<br /><br />That's a 'debate' I'll be staying out of!Paul Carleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-40061898002481622682011-02-25T14:21:36.151+00:002011-02-25T14:21:36.151+00:00Ed: In American English, the h is often dropped fr...Ed: <i>In American English, the h is often dropped from hj- words such as "humour", "huge", "Hugh".</i> Phil: <i>I think that's a Northeast thing.</i> <br /><br />I think that dropping /h/ before /ju/ is an idiolectal rather than a dialectal feature. I live in Boston and have not noticed it occurring frequently. The one person I know who distinctly drops the /h/ before /ju/ is a native of Chicago.<br /><br />Thomas: <i>I've never heard it pronounced by an American any other way than ˈhɒmɑːʒ.</i> <br /><br />Are you sure about that [ɒ] in the first syllable? Most Americans have no such vowel (no LOT–PALM contrast), unless you mean the vowel of THOUGHT in speakers who have a LOT–THOUGHT contrast; but I don't believe many such would use THOUGHT for a letter "o" in that position.<br /><br />I grew up in Seattle, and everybody from whom I heard the word there--chiefly Reform rabbis reading from the old Union Prayer Book--pronounced it ['ɑmɪdʒ]. I asked a gentile friend how he pronounced it and he said it the same way.Miles Rindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03733605717776262840noreply@blogger.com