tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post3523279259509975744..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: language manglersJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-37230256708399408572019-09-04T13:01:04.950+01:002019-09-04T13:01:04.950+01:00Well, today we have a lot of homework. Here is a r...Well, today we have a lot of homework. Here is a reason <a href="https://domyhomework.guru/blog/too-much-homework" rel="nofollow">https://domyhomework.guru/blog/too-much-homework</a> why!Taylor Barahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04054776280759216446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-63659133774472662662010-01-30T14:29:23.085+00:002010-01-30T14:29:23.085+00:00najtnajtAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-15100727496001649412010-01-29T14:27:38.605+00:002010-01-29T14:27:38.605+00:00@Anonymous: Ah, yes - now I understand what you m...@Anonymous: Ah, yes - now I understand what you meant. That may not be what the film was designed to say, but by now it says that, too. <br /><br />Isn't there a quote from antiquity about how the world is going to hell in a handbasket, because kids don't respect their elders? I'm sure I once knew where I could find that, but of course it now escapes me. Probably because, unlike <i>12 Angry Men</i>, I didn't first encounter it my childhood.<br /><br />(Next stop in reception studies: <i>Rashomon</i> ... )<br /><br />@Lipman: I often notice NNS speaking "better" English than NS, but by that I mean that they have a firmer grasp of the grammar and syntax of "standard" English. I have learned to view "non-standard" not as "sub-standard" but simply as a collection of different (and interesting) varieties. But rants about texting, in the teeth of all the genuine evidence, and now this beauty from Martin Allen, are proof that the unthinking worship of "standard" marches on.<br /><br />Well, will you look at that. I got back on topic.Amy Stollerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14067839246823753590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-66877860596091772482010-01-28T10:38:40.871+00:002010-01-28T10:38:40.871+00:00@Amy Stoller: Yes, you've recalled very accura...@Amy Stoller: Yes, you've recalled very accurately. I'm glad you like the film as well; it's brilliant.<br /><br />What I meant is that, for somebody watching it in 2010, you can see that people were saying the same things back in 1957 that are being said now. People were criticised for their "bad English" by people whose own English was not grammatical, in 1957 as in 2010. There's also a part in the film where one juror says that kids have no respect for their elders anymore. I see the film as proof that human nature doesn't change much over time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-38088531813295778182010-01-28T09:03:53.425+00:002010-01-28T09:03:53.425+00:00PS And do you SWALK or nLK? That is the question.
...PS And do you SWALK or <i>n</i>LK? That is the question.<br /><br />This is the answer:<br />http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/columnists/brian-viner/brian-viner-the-english-compensate-by-being-unequivocally-boldly-kissy-in-emails-1881143.htmlmallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-82306900532546628892010-01-28T08:39:16.027+00:002010-01-28T08:39:16.027+00:00Glad to see you're all keeping the rant quotie...Glad to see you're all keeping the rant quotient up.<br /><br />So I'll put in my two pennorth on John's original rant. What I have concluded about teenage texting and even post-teenage texting is that it fits into the category of esoteric cant or jargon that Crystal is talking about, with no implications either way for vocabulary, grammaticality, or orthography of any sort – a lot of the conventions do no favours to spelling reform! And often make no sense even in terms of energy conservation: isn't the 8 in Gr8 4 keystrokes, just like –eat? And can you even get gr8 if you're using the predictive text option? I suppose such things do achieve economy of space for the permitted size of the message.<br /><br />But for example "text" itself, as John pointed out somewhere in this blog at some point, loses its t and has a past form texed. Why don't they use tx, txd, txg? Because it's not so techie as the file extension .txt? Looks to me like just a bit more mindless adherence to convention, some of it as John has pointed out actually as venerable in its antecedents as conventional orthography.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-1941739588554335452010-01-28T07:52:44.185+00:002010-01-28T07:52:44.185+00:00Also interesting that the language itself has chan...Also interesting that the language itself has changed even since this film, but in spite of this proof from real life, people will still say about a non-native speaker that his or her English is better than theirs even if it suffers from strong interferences from a foreign mother tongue, as long as the [t]s aren't dropped or tapped and there's always a [d] in <i>and</i>. Prestige of a register and competence in a register are mixed.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-39602166350845058792010-01-28T07:40:37.336+00:002010-01-28T07:40:37.336+00:00Of course you're not alone. I always appreciat...Of course you're not alone. I always appreciated the unintended second layer of irony, namely that the immigrant is right in correcting the first on the level of what both accept to be proper English, but that descriptively, both are wrong in their premises. The immigrant might speak "proper" English, but the the other two are speaking natural/real &c. English.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-68483531605432943392010-01-28T04:39:33.182+00:002010-01-28T04:39:33.182+00:00@Anonymous: That is a great, great moment in cinem...@Anonymous: That is a great, great moment in cinema. But I don't believe it was intended to illustrate generational differences, although I suppose I should allow that that can also be read into it. (I know this film almost by heart. I was brought up on <i>12 Angry Men</i>, along with <i>Mr. Smith Goes to Washington</i> and <i>Born Yesterday</i>. Everything I think is important in responsible American citizenship is contained in those three films. My ideals take a beating on regular basis.)<br /><br />In the 1957 film, the defendant is Latino. Not one of the jurors is. All of the jurors are white, and with the exception of Juror No. 11, all are native speakers of American English.<br /><br />Juror No. 10 (played by Ed Begley) says: "Bright? He's a common ignorant slob. He don't even speak good English."<br /><br />Juror No. 11 (played by George Voskovec), is the only immigrant on the jury. He speaks English with a foreign accent, and says, mildly: He "<i>doesn't</i> even speak good English."<br /><br />It's at 6:46 in this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jKPF7NVbQQ<br /><br />The interchange, which lasts a few seconds, and which passes without comment by any of the other jurors, is an illustration of the illogic and wrongness of xenophobia and racism; how they can interfere with the careful examination of the facts on their own merits; with so much at stake (the charge of murder is a capital offense), it is literally of vital importance. It's also (as it happens) one of my all time favorite moments in film. Two lines long, and both you and I remember it. I don't think we're alone.<br /><br />There is a generational issue brought up in the character of Juror #3 (Lee J. Cobb), who is estranged from his son. But the way English is spoken doesn't enter into that, unless you count how he describes having to call his father Sir.<br /><br />Of course, our different perspectives on the meaning of this scene just make Reginald Rose's point about perspectives all over again.Amy Stollerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14067839246823753590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-12602475993536041272010-01-27T23:55:45.947+00:002010-01-27T23:55:45.947+00:00Why does vocabulary size even matter? All that ma...Why does vocabulary size even matter? All that matters is if we can communicate with one another. We don't have to use pretentious words to do that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-29053393788591064472010-01-27T21:13:59.123+00:002010-01-27T21:13:59.123+00:00Every generation thinks the kids are going to ruin...Every generation thinks the kids are going to ruin everything. In the old, black & white film "Twelve Angry Men", you hear one man say, "He don't even speak properly," and is corrected by a colleague for using "don't" instead of "doesn't". It was said back then, and it's being said about a different generation now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-7642697354867166352010-01-27T15:53:40.126+00:002010-01-27T15:53:40.126+00:00"The sky has not yet fallen in."
I love..."The sky has not yet fallen in."<br /><br />I love it. The answer to every such reactionary complaint!John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-84930848952641095692010-01-27T12:56:35.006+00:002010-01-27T12:56:35.006+00:00Rock on!Rock on!Amy Stollerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14067839246823753590noreply@blogger.com