tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post3649055594284122649..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: rodeoJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-62394656117397451472011-07-04T14:31:40.331+01:002011-07-04T14:31:40.331+01:00I had the impression that — despite our English te...<em>I had the impression that — despite our English tendency to go for initial stress (cf </em>video, Romeo, stereo<em>) — the penultimate stress was more correct and therefore to be expected from BBC newsreaders.</em><br><br>It may be worth mentioning that one guide to what is 'to be expected from BBC newsreaders' is their own published pronunciation dictionary, which says:<br><br><strong>rodeo</strong> cowboy exhibition<br><strong>roh</strong>-di-oh /ˈrəʊdiəʊ/<br /><br />Less commonly also roh-<strong>day</strong>-oh. The latter pronunciation is also appropriate for the ballet by Copland, and for Rodeo Drive in Beverley Hills.Steve Doerrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18210787261745134371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-8420146835628680022011-07-04T08:07:57.965+01:002011-07-04T08:07:57.965+01:00I have explained why I think setting length marks ...I have explained why I think setting length marks in Italian is wrong and detrimental from the learner's point of view. It is indeed a kind of a hobby horse of mine, in the sense that I love (and frequently use) Italian and encounter in German and growingly English-language sources API transcriptions where length-marks are used. Germans taking such transcriptions seriously and saying:<br /><br />che bella co:sa e' un'giorna:ta e 'l so:le<br />a:ria sere:na do:po la tempesta<br /><br />sound ridiculous. Their dictionaries instructing them to speak like that pay them an 'ursine service' as they say in German (Baerendienst). Unfortunately, the practice seems to be gaining ground even in the heretofore more careful Anglophone publications.<br /><br />Ad John<br /><br />Giuseppe did not say but was said-to (passive voice) 'what do you call...'. One of the pleasant qualities of the Italian people---setting it apart from some other, self-enamoured nations---is that they next to never mock anyone whose native tongue is not Italian for errors in that language....Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-30246427748648588472011-07-04T00:10:18.339+01:002011-07-04T00:10:18.339+01:00An appropriate topic for getting on your hobby hor...An appropriate topic for getting on your hobby horse and having a trot around.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-91791157625605526822011-07-03T22:45:15.178+01:002011-07-03T22:45:15.178+01:00Giuseppe is going to be mocked anyhow if he asks &...Giuseppe is going to be mocked anyhow if he asks "HOW do you call an apple in Italian?". In English we say "WHAT do you call...?"John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-5101339281950837292011-07-02T23:21:59.523+01:002011-07-02T23:21:59.523+01:00Ad Duchesse de Guermantes.
I am not saying that t...Ad Duchesse de Guermantes.<br /><br />I am not saying that the 'a' in 'mano' in either It. or Sp. are short. They are neutral, there being no vowel-quantity in either. Now under certain circumstances, like pause, emphasis, etc. Italians do (sometimes) lengthen the stressed vowels, but this has nothing to do with vowel-length like that of English or Czech or Finnish or German.<br /><br />Listen to this: http://ia700406.us.archive.org/2/items/avventure_pinocchio_librivox/avventurepinocchio_01_collodi_64kb.mp3<br /><br />the beginning of a recording of Pinocchio.<br /><br />Questa e` una registrazio:ne ...?<br /><br />No. registra'zione.<br /><br />Tutte le registrazio:ni di Librivox so:no di domi:nio pubblico? Per ulterio:ri informazio:ni..? <br /><br />No. Just listen, please. Ulte'riori informa'zioni...<br /><br />..o per sape:re co:me diventa:re volonta:rio?<br /><br />No. Again, no 'long' vowels in there. And the lady seems to have no regional accent, least of all that of Cagliari, if you familiar with it.<br /><br />When pronounced in isolation, for illustration purposes, your Italian will drawl the vowel stressed, for instance:<br /><br />Giuseppe, how d'you call an apple in Italian?<br /><br />Answer: me:la.<br /><br />But this is an 'illustration' pronunciation, which has nothing to do with how the word is pronounced in the flow of natural speech.<br /><br />People sometimes mock Italian suade by saying:<br /><br />Tutte le registrazio:ni di Librivox so:no di domi:nio pubblico. Per ulterio:ri informazio:ni o per sape:re co:me diventa:re volonta:rio visita:te il si:to... <br /><br />My problem with length marks in Italian is precisely that it invites and encourages such mockings.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-50200576926125806822011-07-02T22:26:19.333+01:002011-07-02T22:26:19.333+01:00John: Yes, I know. But I've asked if you were ...John: Yes, I know. But I've asked <i>if you were told explicitly to do so</i>...<br /><br />And, Wojciech, <i>tua</i> and <i>è</i> are never long... And <i>mano</i> is never short, like in Spanish.Duchesse de Guermanteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12198316853449400624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-76429959408660239222011-07-02T22:23:29.513+01:002011-07-02T22:23:29.513+01:00That would be like saying it is misleading to tran...That would be like saying it is misleading to transcribe English using <b>r</b> when it is actually pronounced <b>[ɹ]</b> or <b>[ɻ]</b>. Or that it is annoying to transcribe the Enlish <b>e</b> with <b>e</b>. ‘It's better to use <b>ɛ</b>.’ On what planet? Both are equally incorrect. But <b>e</b> has an advantage of being more transparent. I found that Amy Stoller comment completely hilarious...<br /><br />No Italian would pronounce <b>kavaˈljɛːɾe</b> with a short <b>ɛ</b>...Duchesse de Guermanteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12198316853449400624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-72972175282235080902011-07-02T20:33:55.933+01:002011-07-02T20:33:55.933+01:00Length marks in Italian are _worse_ than redundant...Length marks in Italian are _worse_ than redundant, I'd insist: they are systematically misleading. They mislead people into thinking that the stressed vowel is always long, which it is not; some Italians drawl, it is true, stressed vowels but only before a pause, or when they wish to put emphasis on the word, or when they pronounce the word in isolation, for illustration purposes (but even there they might just as well not drawl them, and sound equally correct).<br /><br />If you ask an Italian and a Spanish what 'hand' is their respective native idiom, they will say 'mano', and chances are that Giuseppe will lengthen the 'a' while Jose will not.<br /><br />But no Italian will ever say: 'la tu:a ma:no e`: cosi` fredda' or something like it. This would sound ridiculous, or like ridiculing the Italian language.<br /><br />The vice of placing length marks after Italian stressed vowels resides in this, that they encourage ridiculous pronunciations like that---nay, they make them appear exclusively correct.<br /><br />In English by contrast---a language which has real vowel-length---a speech-scrap like this:<br /><br />who will believe my verse in time to come<br /><br />no matter how quickly and sloppily pronounced, will always have a (relatively) long vowel in 'believe' and 'verse' (non-rhotic English, that is), will it not?Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-2413086055042676122011-07-02T18:43:26.558+01:002011-07-02T18:43:26.558+01:00Duchesse: I wouldn't use the length mark for c...Duchesse: I wouldn't use the length mark for consonants, I'd double them, thus <b>abˈbado</b>. They straddle the syllable boundary.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-77297728788967235792011-07-02T17:41:58.718+01:002011-07-02T17:41:58.718+01:00"Rodeo" has initial stress for me (b. Mi..."Rodeo" has initial stress for me (b. Michigan, l. Massachusetts), except in the name of Copland's orchestral suite; then it's penultimate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-44685637129558231312011-07-02T16:55:56.706+01:002011-07-02T16:55:56.706+01:00Thank you for the reply! I have one other question...Thank you for the reply! I have one other question: if you were to use the lenth mark for geminated consonants, would you put them before the stress mark or after it? For example, <i>Abbado</i>. Would it be <b>abːˈado</b> or <b>aˈbːado</b>?Duchesse de Guermanteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12198316853449400624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-45428646359175055902011-07-02T13:01:51.481+01:002011-07-02T13:01:51.481+01:00Duchesse: there is often more than one 'correc...Duchesse: there is often more than one 'correct' way of phonetically transcribing a given language using IPA. Although length marks in Italian are redundant, many people find them useful reminders (compared with, say, Spanish). I generally follow my late colleague Marguerite Chapallaz's <i>Pronunciation of Italian</i>. She uses <b>j</b>.<br />Typeface: I have chosen Segoe UI for my blog (or, for Mac users and anyone else who doesn't have it, Lucida Grande) because I prefer it to other phonetic fonts currently available. I have no control over the typeface of comments.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-45527215979093735022011-07-02T12:11:27.097+01:002011-07-02T12:11:27.097+01:00Another question regarding Italian: would it be mo...Another question regarding Italian: would it be more correct to transcribe it this way <b>kavaˈljɛːɾe</b> or this way, with an non-syllabic <b>i</b>, <b>kavaˈli̯ɛːɾe</b>? I think the <i>LPD</i> uses the <b>j</b>.Duchesse de Guermanteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12198316853449400624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-2724980802104769122011-07-02T12:08:51.141+01:002011-07-02T12:08:51.141+01:00As far as Romeo goes in Italian... I do wonder whe...As far as <b>Romeo</b> goes in Italian... I do wonder whether that length mark should be there, not because it is inexact, but because I think some Italians lenthen the vowel, while others do not.<br /><br />P. S. Is there any way of changing the typeface of the comments to Segoe UI used in the main blog post or Lucida or any other, fully IPA-compliant one?<br /><br />P. P. S. Is it a rule to use the alveolar tap <b>ɾ</b> for Italian <i>r</i> between the vowels and the trill <b>r</b> elsewhere?Duchesse de Guermanteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12198316853449400624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-76885205335353390022011-07-01T23:05:05.941+01:002011-07-01T23:05:05.941+01:00I've only heard /roʊ'deɪoʊ/ as a kind of j...I've only heard /roʊ'deɪoʊ/ as a kind of jocular pronunciation in American English (or for Rodeo Drive, as others have mentioned). Other than those exceptions, it's always /ˈroʊdioʊ/ here.yuriivehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03558374848664262968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-4757201221207139452011-07-01T22:05:43.887+01:002011-07-01T22:05:43.887+01:00I do not approve---it verily displeaseth me to say...I do not approve---it verily displeaseth me to say this---of representing the Italian pronunciation of 'Romeo' as roˈmɛːo. I do not think that Italian has vowel-quantity in the sense in which English or German or Finnish or Czech or French have it, or in which Latin had it. The second --- stressed --- vowel in 'Romeo' will often be lenghthened, but not always and besides, this lengthening seems to belong to a different level of language than the length 'a' in 'part' or the lenght of 'e`' in 'me`re' (French).<br /><br />I understand that persons whose native language knows vowels long and short cannot help hearing them in Italian; just as, if their native idiom does not know geminated consonants, they can't help NOT hearing them in Italian. Pero`...Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-83671986110727696122011-07-01T21:34:47.596+01:002011-07-01T21:34:47.596+01:00And I'm sure you're aware of the pattern o...And I'm sure you're aware of the pattern of Americanization of Mexican Spanish that gives <i>lariat</i> from <i>la riata,</i> <i>buckaroo</i> from <i>vaquero,</i> etc.<br /><br />These changes occurred orally, and then later spelled phonetically. I think it's just a coincidence that the phonetic rendering of the AmE "rodeo" is identical to the standard Spanish orthography.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-87111426555804007342011-07-01T21:28:19.854+01:002011-07-01T21:28:19.854+01:00I agree with the previous commenters. I'd go s...I agree with the previous commenters. I'd go so far as to say that roʊˈdeɪoʊ for the sport sounds pretentious and affected to most North American English-speakers, and should be avoided.<br /><br />A couple of observations just to complicate things: 1) The BOAT vowel in Calgary is very different from the BOAT vowel in, say, Houston*, Texas, so IPA might not be the best way to think about this. 2) Many participants in rodeo are Mexican or Mexican-American, and may speak Spanish as their primary language. I've no idea what impact that might have. The Mexican equivalent is called <i>charreada.</i> There's an similar sport in Chile called <i>rodeo,</i> but I've never been able to predict how Chilenos are going to pronounce anything.<br /><br />* Rodeo (sport) : Rodeo Drive :: Houston, Texas : Houston Street, ManhattanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-34110873919394346402011-07-01T20:19:35.301+01:002011-07-01T20:19:35.301+01:00A quick survey of songs:
ˈroʊdioʊ
"Rodeo Gir...A quick survey of songs:<br /><br />ˈroʊdioʊ<br />"Rodeo Girl" Rickie Lee Jones<br />"Prince of the Rodeo" Turbonegro<br />"Rodeo Town" The Kills<br />"The Sweetheart of the Rodeo" Emmylou Harris<br />"Rodeo" Garth Brooks<br />"Rodeo Clowns" Jack Johnson <br /><br />roʊdioʊ (stress unclear)<br />"Papa was a Rodeo" Magnetic Fields<br />"Rodeo" Method Man<br /><br />roʊdeɪoʊ (stress unclear)<br />"King of the Rodeo" Kings of Leon<br /><br />roʊˈdeɪoʊ <br />"Down Rodeo" Rage against the Machine (the track is about the street aforementioned Rodeo Drive)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-88665196860888888062011-07-01T14:54:02.973+01:002011-07-01T14:54:02.973+01:00Like ibarrere, I have only heard first syllable st...Like ibarrere, I have only heard first syllable stress for the English common noun "rodeo". Penultimate stress in Spanish or the placename "Rodeo Drive" in Beverly Hills.<br /><br />(ex-Brit, lived in northern California for the past<br />14 years)vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-59790061833931481452011-07-01T14:00:07.314+01:002011-07-01T14:00:07.314+01:00I learned the first-syllable pronunciation growing...I learned the first-syllable pronunciation growing up in the northeastern US, where it is universal, but as an adult I've had natives of the southwestern US make fun of me for not accenting the E. I believe that people in the rodeo biz also accent the E.<br /><br />Even for me, the well-known ballet by Agnes de Mille is always accented on the E.nycguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02799769428539687855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-16344947399819351602011-07-01T13:44:39.571+01:002011-07-01T13:44:39.571+01:00@reuoq gosh what an egocentric comment!! Just bec...@reuoq gosh what an egocentric comment!! Just because *you've* never heard a pronunciation doesn't mean it's not used!!<br />See comment earlier on Rodeo Drive for instance ... :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-33357782446868070842011-07-01T12:41:00.208+01:002011-07-01T12:41:00.208+01:00Wait... someone in the world actually says it with...Wait... someone in the world actually says it with penultimate stress, or were you just assuming based on the Spanish? I mean, *I've* never heard it with penultimate stress in my life...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-6328574613398619982011-07-01T11:13:05.205+01:002011-07-01T11:13:05.205+01:00Forvo has three recordings for rodeo in English, a...Forvo has three recordings for <em>rodeo</em> in English, all from the United States. Two give only initial stress, while the other gives that pronunciation first, followed by the alternative with penultimate stress.Steve Doerrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18210787261745134371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-32546413236459643282011-07-01T10:07:21.954+01:002011-07-01T10:07:21.954+01:00As an AmE speaker, /ˈroʊdioʊ/ is the only pronunci...As an AmE speaker, /ˈroʊdioʊ/ is the only pronunciation I would use/have heard in the US. However, there is a street in Beverly Hills called Rodeo Drive, and that's generally pronounced /roʊ'deɪoʊ/ibarrerehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01578699951434219626noreply@blogger.com