tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post4364500399154031548..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: newly minimalJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-59837371142989269542012-02-13T13:01:40.332+00:002012-02-13T13:01:40.332+00:00Is there a similar thing going on with vowel front...Is there a similar thing going on with vowel fronting in morphologically indivisible 'tuna' against morphologically transparent 'tuner'? <br /><br />Humphrey Lyttelton, as an elderly RP speaker, reported himself baffled by much younger speaker incomprehensibly offering him a 'cheena' sandwich: I'm inclined to think (though have no evidence; the comparison has only just occurred to me thanks to this post) the same degree of fronting wouldn't occur if the same speaker were talking about a piano tuner. And that would imply it's not all about the development of 'l' as the following consonant.PJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02962494229062269048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-19240416704772844642012-02-11T06:38:23.785+00:002012-02-11T06:38:23.785+00:00P.S. I also remember a French work colleague compl...P.S. I also remember a French work colleague complaining that English people tend to say <i>merci beau cul</i>!Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17579722028242016675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-14318933792302347982012-02-11T06:32:48.882+00:002012-02-11T06:32:48.882+00:00Very interesting.
I remember, as a teenager, feel...Very interesting.<br /><br />I remember, as a teenager, feeling that distinguishing <b>u</b> and <b>y</b> was unreasonably difficult to the English ear, after a mix-up in French where I headed in the opposite direction from what I had been told because I failed to distinguish <i>dessous</i> and <i>dessus</i> reliably.<br /><br />It seems from your example that today's English teenagers now manage it effortlessly.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17579722028242016675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-54788116283790383372012-02-05T22:47:15.657+00:002012-02-05T22:47:15.657+00:00I'm from 1991 so will chip in with my own data...I'm from 1991 so will chip in with my own data.<br /><br />After a bit of thinking this is what I think I have, which is totally different (also broadly an RP speaker, Gloucestershire, but middle-class).<br /><br />RULE [ɹʉːɫ]<br />RULER [ɹʉː.lə] (sovereign)<br />GOOSE [ɡʊus]<br />RULER [ɹʊu.lə] (measurinɡ)<br />COOL [kʰʉːɫ]<br />CALL [kʰɔːɫ]<br /><br />The RULE/COOL vowel varies between two points, I can also go towards the COOL/CALL homophony with it.<br /><br />ABOVE RANGE ORIGIN(?)<br />/ʉː/ [ʉː~ɵː] parents<br />/ɔː/ [ʌː~ɔː] peers<br /><br />As can be seen from the range I ALWAYS seem to keep the distinction between COOL and CALL when saying it as /ɔː/, COOL is slightly unrounded whereas CALL is wholly rounded. I NEVER produce or think of the two as full homophones and wouldn't rhyme them.<br /><br />As for CURE, as far as I can tell it's the same vowel as RULE and COOL with the same potential variation.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01773966173117509466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-64183875700930901152012-02-04T23:32:33.184+00:002012-02-04T23:32:33.184+00:00Lipman, if I could attach a sound file to your com...Lipman, if I could attach a sound file to your comment that went "Ba-da-BOOM!" I would do so, even though it took a couple of seconds for the penny to drop for me.Miles Rindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03733605717776262840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-74514691378204098992012-02-04T23:13:32.409+00:002012-02-04T23:13:32.409+00:00Ad John
sorry for having overlooked your reply to...Ad John<br /><br />sorry for having overlooked your reply to my 'doubts' about Shane's tall=tool. Thank you. I was doubting Shane's seriousness tongue-in-cheek, as I quite often do (some posters seem to think I joke too much in my modest contributions to your blog).<br /><br />So, if you mentioned the said merger in Accents ... thirty years ago, it IS, after all, 'good *ole* RP'? All the better.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-29814815630187545032012-02-04T20:53:25.575+00:002012-02-04T20:53:25.575+00:00Actually, a correction should be made— the ‘trisyl...Actually, a correction should be made— the ‘trisyllabic laxing’ in my post should be ‘trisyllabic tensing’Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-79644988029056370322012-02-04T20:38:04.346+00:002012-02-04T20:38:04.346+00:00For just to look in to any linear phonotatic pheno...For just to look in to any linear phonotatic phenomenon here, it seems that it would be not wrong to conclude that the phenomenon of whose consequence be the emergence of the ‘trisyllabic laxing’ (or rather triletter vowel laxing?) whereas the ‘ruler’ is apart but the [ɫ] in ‘rule’ is, for the sake of /l/ neutralisation.<br /><br />Then, there is a conflict with the same analogy as well, like in these examples--'cable' [ˈkeɪbəl], 'capability' [ˌkeɪpəˈbɪlɪtɪ], 'captive' [ˈkæptɪv] etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-79293418599024068682012-02-04T18:36:28.515+00:002012-02-04T18:36:28.515+00:00Do you also have /ɔː/ in CURE words (e.g. "cu...Do you also have /ɔː/ in CURE words (e.g. "cure", "Europe", "tour", "tourism")?vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-5090661919610165912012-02-04T18:27:24.549+00:002012-02-04T18:27:24.549+00:00THOUGHT has become very high in the South. But it ...<i>THOUGHT has become very high in the South. But it does sound noticeably different from what get transcribed as /o:/ in e.g. German, woudln't you say? If so, why? Less lip rounding? Higher? No diphthongisation? Some kind of pharyngealisation??? Or is it just my ears ;)</i><br /><br />Definitely not your ears. I used to have this kind of THOUGHT/NORTH/FORCE vowel (actually two vowels: I had the "board"/"bored" split). My BOARD (i.e. non-morpheme-final) vowel was something like [o̹ˤ̙ː] (i.e. rounded, retracted and pharyngealized). My BORED (morpheme-final) version was less rounded and less pharyngealized, but still slightly retracted: [o̙ː]<br /><br />I've since modified my THOUGHT vowel in the direction of [ɒː], since it caused significant communication difficulties once I moved to the US.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-59326717160042000032012-02-04T17:22:22.652+00:002012-02-04T17:22:22.652+00:00I can post now. Perhaps Google has fixed the issu...I can post now. Perhaps Google has fixed the issue.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-52641407008824461662012-02-04T17:21:28.407+00:002012-02-04T17:21:28.407+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-36300214713019033152012-02-04T16:53:16.540+00:002012-02-04T16:53:16.540+00:00I first read that as "I have the FRONT vowel ...I first read that as "I have the FRONT vowel in <i>folk</i>" and wondered A. how that was possible, and B. whether people often misunderstood you.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-68298756420268908932012-02-04T16:50:28.251+00:002012-02-04T16:50:28.251+00:00Since the changes, I haven't been able to post...Since the changes, I haven't been able to post any comment using Opera, even if I mask it as IE. Bloody annoying, and I don't understand why they're ignoring the agreed standard in favour of some IE-specific coding.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-38505878455299627572012-02-04T16:10:09.153+00:002012-02-04T16:10:09.153+00:00That's interesting to hear that someone else h...That's interesting to hear that someone else has noticed this. I think that gender may be becoming more significant as a variable that explains one's speech in Britain.Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04081841460525341333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-46965163753719656362012-02-04T16:06:31.098+00:002012-02-04T16:06:31.098+00:00I feel that descriptions of modern RP often drift ...I feel that descriptions of modern RP often drift into equating it with middle-class south-eastern speech. L-vocalisation is a good example. Linguists are talking about it as a feature of modern RP, yet the trend is mostly confined to the south and other parts of the country have actually seen the opposite process in words like "cold", "old", etc.Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04081841460525341333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-72987050419900400332012-02-04T12:15:38.188+00:002012-02-04T12:15:38.188+00:00'Too many front vowels' was of course terr...'Too many front vowels' was of course terribly sloppy, I meant front vowels where they normally don't occur, or where they have not occured until recently... or perhaps: .. where they don't occur in the speech of people not known to speak in a particularly soft and tender manner... . I am hard put to be precise here, I admit. <br /><br />But the 'Tracy' example---I cannot help feeling that that 'yü'-pronunciation in phrases like 'how can I help you' or similar does, in part at least, express a somewhat affected friendliness which would perhaps be out of place elsewhere and in male speakers gives rise to an impression which for want of a better word we call 'effeminate-ness'. I have very little exposure to living British speech, so maybe all of that is just phantasy and projection... In particular, I have never been among a speech community whose GOOSE (hüz güz? looks Turkish a bit) were central on a regular basis, but if there is such a community then you're right that Tracy's 'yü' is---almost by definition---unremarkable.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-2708792565463270032012-02-04T10:39:16.475+00:002012-02-04T10:39:16.475+00:00OK, adding a palatal component to vowels that are ...OK, adding a palatal component to vowels that are not usually front in the community is one of the features of imitated baby-talk, I'll grant you that; so if that's how you want "too many front vowels" interpreted, then OK. But front vowels as such? Think <i>Führer</i> or <i>Übermensch</i> (excuse me).<br /><br />So if GOOSE is front, or at least central, in /j-/ contexts in the community at large (which it is), then this Tracy's <i>you</i> is unremarkable.<br /><br />(Yes it's a blog, but quite a few posters on here are distinguished by, erm, meticulous attention to detail, if you know what I mean. So forgive my harshness.)wjarekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07871668374161722713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-88019443132326871492012-02-04T10:06:39.517+00:002012-02-04T10:06:39.517+00:00Well... this is a blog, ain't it? But no, I am...Well... this is a blog, ain't it? But no, I am afraid I am serious. Fronting vowels---or adding a front component to their articulation---is a tool for turning normal into speech to baby-talk in at least two languages known to me, viz. Polish and German. In English---I wot not.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-45952703700708028032012-02-04T09:10:36.916+00:002012-02-04T09:10:36.916+00:00You can't be serious, Wojciech.You can't be serious, Wojciech.wjarekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07871668374161722713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-24996165132287757762012-02-03T23:46:16.747+00:002012-02-03T23:46:16.747+00:00this does seem so, but in part perhaps because too...this does seem so, but in part perhaps because too many front vowels in your speech makes an effeminate or baby-talk-like impression anyway. Sometimes, a front component brings on this impression of exaggerated tenderness or such, I remember in my youth there was a song where they sang:<br /><br />nobody loves me and nobody --- something or other, I forget what -- me like you do, <br /><br />and then they added: like you dyouu, like you dyoo dyoo<br /><br />there: yoo, here: ü. Maybe this Tracy wants to create the impression of caring for her customers with particular tenderness, perhaps a bitchy, domineering Tracy would---in an appropriate situation---say 'you' rather than 'yü'?Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-38568739542424497132012-02-03T23:18:40.211+00:002012-02-03T23:18:40.211+00:00Wojciech:
> tall=tool, are you, is he, serious?...Wojciech:<br />> tall=tool, are you, is he, serious?<br />I mentioned this possibility thirty years ago in Accents of English, p. 316 (the chapter about London). I'm sure Shane is entirely serious. Please catch up.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-46598181018486035412012-02-03T22:44:01.989+00:002012-02-03T22:44:01.989+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-20745463685372830522012-02-03T22:15:02.294+00:002012-02-03T22:15:02.294+00:00Ed >>It seems to me that fronted pronunciati...Ed >>It seems to me that fronted pronunciations of GOOSE are much more common amongst young women than amongst young men. Does anyone else find this?<<<br /><br />Yes, very much so (think of: "Hello, I'm Tracy. Can I help yü") -- almost to the extent that, to me at least, it sounds effeminate when produced by young men.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10718209592445394736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-54829107372034062492012-02-03T21:59:24.617+00:002012-02-03T21:59:24.617+00:00I wonder if any of Christian Uffmann's respond...<i>I wonder if any of Christian Uffmann's respondents who pronounce the two senses of "ruler" with different vowels have [ɫ] in "rule", that is, don't vocalise that /l/.</i><br /><br />The view that they are different was apparently unanimous, so I would imagine so, unless the sample was pretty small; For the same sort of reason I suspect the phenomenon isn't limited to the South-East.<br /><br />I have some sound changes which are sometimes associated with /l/-vocalisation, such as a neutralisation of the LOT/GOAT contrast before word-final and pre-consonantal /l/ (and FOOT/GOOSE is in trouble in the same environment, though THOUGHT/GOOSE is robust). But I don't have /l/-vocalisation.JHJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03257258313943639485noreply@blogger.com