tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post4662163076862446168..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: keynote inflationJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-66637488001942191332020-06-13T10:39:12.092+01:002020-06-13T10:39:12.092+01:00Haloo pak^^
Kami dari SENTANAPOKER ingin menawark...Haloo pak^^<br /><br />Kami dari SENTANAPOKER ingin menawarkan pak^^<br /><br />Untuk saat ini kami menerima Deposit Melalui Pulsa ya pak.<br /><br />*untuk minimal deposit 10ribu<br />*untuk minimal Withdraw 25ribu<br /><br />*untuk deposit pulsa kami menerima provider<br />-XL<br />-Telkomsel<br /><br /><br />untuk bonus yang kami miliki kami memiliki<br />*bonus cashback 0,5%<br />*bunus refferal 20%<br />*bonus gebiar bulanan (N-max,samsung Note 10+,Iphone xr 64G,camera go pro 7hero,Apple airpods 2 ,dan freechips)<br /><br />Daftar Langsung Di:<br /><br />SENTANAPOKER<br /><br />Kontak Kami;<br /><br />WA : +855 9647 76509<br />Line : SentanaPoker<br />Wechat : SentanaPokerLivechat Sentanapoker<br /><br />Proses deposit dan withdraw tercepat bisa anda rasakan jika bermain di Sentanapoker. So… ? tunggu apa lagi ? Mari bergabung dengan kami. Pelayanan CS yang ramah dan Proffesional dan pastinya sangat aman juga bisa anda dapatkan di Sentanapoker.yessy haryantohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16503331838637071246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-70142448060210661312012-12-22T14:38:33.418+00:002012-12-22T14:38:33.418+00:00Yes, I did understand you correctly immediately, y...Yes, I did understand you correctly immediately, your spellchecker, though, seems to hold you in an enthralling grip. Why won't you switch the blackguard off?<br /><br />Re 3. Yes, the 'lyres' writer most likely had that in mind, had this scene in front of his mind's eyes: Ms. Day had asked her mother whether she (Ms. Day) would be pretty and so on, and HERE IS, ladies and gentlemen, surprise surprise, what she (Ms. Day's mother), in her turn, said to her (Ms. Days): que sera, sera... How true.<br /><br />Full true name ---> Profile<br /><br />Those 'capture' inscriptions are sometimes absurdly difficult (for a heavily postcocious like me) and sometimes equally absurdly easy (now you have to be an expert in epi- and palaeography, now just reasonably literate). Strange.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-53091839269042300622012-12-22T11:58:35.163+00:002012-12-22T11:58:35.163+00:00lyres
Sorry, that's what my spellchecker wrot...<i>lyres</i><br /><br />Sorry, that's what my spellchecker wrote. I meant to write <i><b>lyrics</b></i>, and probably should have written <i><b>lyric</b></i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-90325615991173736092012-12-22T11:53:23.669+00:002012-12-22T11:53:23.669+00:00Wojciech
Day sang 'here's what they said ...Wojciech<br /><br /><i>Day sang 'here's what they said (or whaddeva) to me' with 'me' heavily stressed</i><br /><br />I wouldn't say 'heavily'. Not by musical standards.<br /><br />if a native speaker utters the words <i>Here's what she said to me</i>, the possibilities are perfectly clear, depending on what the speaker intends to convey:<br /><br />1. 'Here are the words my mother used when she answered my question'<br />— <i><b>said</b> to me</i> NO OTHER POSSIBILITY<br /><br />2. 'She may have given different answers to other people but these are the words she used to answer me'<br />— <i>said to <b>me</b></i> NO OTHER POSSIBILITY<br /><br />3. 'That's what I said to her, and this is what she said to me'<br />— <i><b>she</b> said to <b>me</b></i> or (less likely) <i>she said to <b>me</b></i><br /><br />It wouldn't surprise me if it proved that the lyres writer originally thought in terms of [3]. If the tune allowed for <i>This is what she said to me</i> then the stresses could fall on <b>This, she, me</b>: TUM-TI-TI-TUM-TI-TI-TUM.<br /><br />However the tune calls for TI-TUM-TI-TUM for<br /><i>• sera sera<br />• she said to me<br />• my sweetheart said<br />• them tenderly</i><br />So the three stresses — this sort of tune in this sort of song can't tolerate two or four — must fall on <b>Here, said, me</b>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-44365448698246870152012-12-22T09:31:06.911+00:002012-12-22T09:31:06.911+00:00David,
yes, but that was not in the least my poin...David,<br /><br />yes, but that was not in the least my point, nothing can be farther from the truth that I have the intention to reform the language of Shakespeare, Milton and the Bible (to quote Prof. Higgins) by getting the English to say <br />'say that to him' instead of 'tell him that'. What was important rather was the Day sang 'here's what they said (or whaddeva) to me' with 'me' heavily stressed for logical or perhaps musico-rhythmical reasons, or both.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-8318008371256947982012-12-21T19:04:38.769+00:002012-12-21T19:04:38.769+00:00Barry, Wojcieck
John's 'Elementary Reason...Barry, Wojcieck<br /><br />John's 'Elementary Reasons' may not stand to stringent examination as an exception less rule. But they're perfectly acceptable as a basis for advice to students on pronunciation. As best i can reproduce them, they are:<br /><br />Elementary reasons for deaccenling: <br />....................function word <br />He keeps <b>wor</b>rying about it. <br />I've just received a <b>let</b>ter from her. <br />What's all the <b>fuss</b> about? <br />Who were you <b>talk</b>ing to? <br />Why are you a<b>void</b>ing me? <br /><br />Students at most levels can easily grasp that <i>worry, talk, avoid</i> are verbs and <i>letter, fuss</i> are nouns. They can, I suggest, easily be led to recognise a bigger class also including adverbs and adjectives. Then all we need is a class of <b>everything else</b> words. We wouldn't need to <b>define</b> everything else. provided that students recognise nouns, verbs, adjectives and adverbs, they can automatically recognise whatever term we use use for everything-else words. The only problem with calling them <i>function words</i> is that it challenges the students to perceive some common characteristic.<br /><br />In the five examples, six words are found following the last noun/verb of a clause. They are: <i>about</i> (twice), <i>it, from, her, to, me</i>. By definition they are 'everything-else words' aka function words, grammar words or whatever. Our <b>advice</b> to students is simple: Don't stress any of these words unless there's a good reason.<br /><br />Sure, all seven instances of these six words <b>could</b> accept stress, but there'd need to be a justification — in these cases to signal a contrast. In the case of <i>it</i>, the justification would be very hard indeed to find, but i suppose it's just about possible. The other personal pronouns are no more and no less likely to accept stress than the prepositions.<br /><br />Fortunately, <i>I've just received a letter from her</i> and <i>Why are you avoiding me?</i> are clear cases. Only an obvious desire to contrast can justify final stress. Sure, there are potential examples such as <i>I was saying those words to him</i> where stressed <i><b>him</b></i> would not be so marked and unusual. But that just means that students won't produce inappropriate stress, since both <i>for him</i> and <i>for <b>him</b> will sound reasonable appropriate.him</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-86695021217122322552012-12-21T16:25:12.897+00:002012-12-21T16:25:12.897+00:00Is your point that 'that's what she said.....<i> Is your point that 'that's what she said...' would be anaphoric or backward-looking whilst 'here's what she said...' is forward-looking, as the context requires?</i><br /><br />Precisely that, Wojciech. I trust you also noted the use of <i>tell</i> in the third verse.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-39235850378611124562012-12-21T14:08:05.594+00:002012-12-21T14:08:05.594+00:00David
Why have one rule for personal pronouns and...David<br /><br />Why have one rule for personal pronouns and another rule for other function/grammar words?<br /><br />Obviously one rule is better and simpler than two. Sometimes, however, students have a very hazy idea of what a function word is, but a very clear idea of personal pronouns. It depends on the exact teaching moment, and what stage the students are at.<br /><br />What does call for an extra rule is the pronoun/determiner set it, its, itself. I think it's true to say that these can never be stressed — unlike all the other personal pronoun/determiners which can carry contrastive stress or the stress that comes from deictic (pointing) use.<br /><br />Yes, it seems difficult to stress it or its. Itself seems also unstressed as a simple reflexive pronoun in unmarked examples:<br />1. I hit myself by accident with the HAmmer. (nuclear stress in bold capitals) <br />But surely, contrastive stress is imaginable, too, with this simple reflexive pronoun:<br />2. I didn’t hit YOU, I hit mySELF.<br /><br />However, as an emphatic reflexive pronoun, it would seem natural to stress it:<br />3. I did it mySELF (ie he didn’t do it, nor did she.) (Nuclear stress in bold capitals, as before)<br />But we can imagine unstressing it, too, in order to stress other elements in the sentence:<br />4. A: You’ve done all this yourSELF?<br /> B: Well, I painted the WOODwork myself, but I didn’t put the WALLpaper up. <br /><br />Maybe, itself, himself etc are exceptions to the rule that grammar/function words are unstressed.<br />Barry Cusackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02246323000719304735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-60680030114152442602012-12-21T14:04:29.249+00:002012-12-21T14:04:29.249+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Barry Cusackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02246323000719304735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-60715796152136436912012-12-21T07:55:58.847+00:002012-12-21T07:55:58.847+00:00Ad Steve Doerr:
'such things happening to him...Ad Steve Doerr:<br /><br />'such things happening to him without his special wonder'. It is clear that 'to him' as such is not stressed in a group like that, not under normal circumstances, yet I thought that, unless logical stress be on 'him', 'to' would be weakly (secondarily, tertiarily even)---perhaps very weakly---stressed. Would it not? I mean, are you saying that whilst 'hap-' be strongly (primarily) stress'd, the rest does not carry any stress at all? I should find something like that barely pronounceable. Lots of NNS stress 'him', wrongly....<br /><br />Ad David<br /><br />'So let's make it I say precisely those words to him. The pronoun is clause-final not so that it can be the focus of NEW information, but for a purely grammatical reason: say, unlike tell cannot form a clause with and Indirect Object form.<br /><br />So, to him is the only possible form. Whether to stress him or not is a simple choice of contrast or no contrast. As I see it, the non-contrastive form is the unmarked form — i.e. unstressed him is the unmarked norm, even though it's clause-final.'<br /><br />Yes, I know all of this. My point was just that in order to stress the indirect object logically you can (must?) stress 'him' phonetically, albeit you normally do not stress personal pronouns in the language of Shakespeare, Milton and the Bible (to speak with Prof. Higgins). I did _not_ say that that was a very frequent situation, let alone that you can do without 'to' or any such...<br /><br />My other point was that many foreign learners of English stress the personal pronoun whether it carry logical emphasis or not, and it's high time for English teachers to do something about this scandal.<br /><br /><br />You obviously remember old songs better. Is your point that 'that's what she said...' would be anaphoric or backward-looking whilst 'here's what she said...' is forward-looking, as the context requires?<br /><br />Full name --- see ProfilePodpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-36361469282208423082012-12-20T23:12:05.474+00:002012-12-20T23:12:05.474+00:00that's what she said to me ''Que sera,...<i>that's what she said to me ''Que sera, sera---whatever will be will be'''.</i><br /><br />No, Wojciech, <br /><i><b>Here's</b> what she said to me<br />Que sera sera...</i>. <br /><br />In the remaining verses:<br /><br /><i>Here's what my sweetheart said<br />Que sera sera ...<br /><br /><br />I tell them tenderly<br />Que sera sera ...</i><br />David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-75452638134731648292012-12-20T22:58:17.089+00:002012-12-20T22:58:17.089+00:00Wojciech
Changing to Past I was saying that to hi...Wojciech<br /><br />Changing to Past <i>I was saying that to him</i> remove some problems, but the expression is still, as John Cowan says, highly marked. It needs a particular context to justify <i>that</i> rather than <i>it</i> and two special variant contests for unstressed and stressed <i>him</i>.<br /><br />• <i>I was <b>saying that</b> to him</i> = 'I was asserting that while I was speaking to him'<br /><br />• <i>I was saying that to <b>him</b></i> = 'He wasn't asserting that to me; it was the other way round' or 'While you were asserting that to her, I was asserting it to him'<br /><br />John Cowan's variants with <i>just</i> are more idiomatic still, but beware <i>I was Just saying that to him</i> with the implication <i>but I didn't mean it</i><br /><br />The problem remains that to make the sentence idiomatic you have to imagine a context, and it's the context that determines whether <i>him</i> is stressed or not.<br /><br />It seems an unnecessary complication to have two referring pronouns <i>that</i> and <i>it</i> to play with. <br /><br />(Unless you want to discuss the first of the two, that it. I'm fairly confident that the choice is between unstressable <i>it</i> and stressable <i>that</i>, which needn't have full primary stress, but can't be reduced to <i>ðət</i>.)<br /><br />So let's make it <i>I say precisely those words to him</i>. The pronoun is clause-final <b>not</b> so that it can be the focus of NEW information, but for a purely grammatical reason: <i>say</i>, unlike <i>tell</i> cannot form a clause with and Indirect Object form.<br /><br />So, <i>to him</i> is the only possible form. Whether to stress <i>him</i> or not is a simple choice of contrast or no contrast. As I see it, the non-contrastive form is the unmarked form — i.e. unstressed <i>him</i> is the unmarked norm, even though it's clause-final.<br />David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-33949225732512150142012-12-20T22:01:09.939+00:002012-12-20T22:01:09.939+00:00@Wojciech: stressing the word 'to' would s...@Wojciech: stressing the word 'to' would seem decidedly odd. There might occasionally be a slight weight on the word as a result of the general rhythm of the sentence (“What’s <em>HAPpening</em> to ’im?”), and contrastive stress is just about possible (“He’s not giving the presents, they’re being given <em>to</em> him”).Steve Doerrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18210787261745134371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-38330044982885593382012-12-20T19:41:52.915+00:002012-12-20T19:41:52.915+00:00I now seem from the days of yore to remember I bel...I now seem from the days of yore to remember I believe an American, a Doris Day, who used to sing, reporting a conversation with her mother: '[I asked her this and that and] that's what she said to me ''Que sera, sera---whatever will be will be'''.<br /><br />Obviously, Ms. Day's mother was rather strong at tautologies. But 'that's what she told me' wouldn't have been the same, would it.<br /><br />Now, is according to you-guys 'I am saying to him' inapplicable under all circumstances? I thought it would express the idea of performing a speech-act towards 'him', or it would be applicable in contrastive contexts: saying something about someone as distinct from saying something TO someone.<br /><br />Anyway, we all now agree---do we not?---that, whatever the verb, 'him' CAN be stressed, if it be (logically) stressed, if it convey the 'news' (who? HIM, rather than HER or THEM). But only if. Many foreigners, Chinese or other, imagine that the personal pronoun can receive stress even if not logically emphasised.<br /><br />For full true name --- see Profile Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-44488315652014428382012-12-20T17:59:11.401+00:002012-12-20T17:59:11.401+00:00John Cowan
The tense makes all the difference.John Cowan<br /><br />The tense makes all the difference.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-74023624202299142672012-12-20T14:52:26.206+00:002012-12-20T14:52:26.206+00:00David, I don't find it unidiomatic, just not t...David, I don't find it unidiomatic, just not the unmarked expression. Compare <i>I was saying (just) that to him</i> or <i>That is (just) what I am saying to him</i>.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-81434960960611753622012-12-20T12:50:17.800+00:002012-12-20T12:50:17.800+00:00David
Yes I know 'saying that to him' is ...David<br /><br />Yes I know 'saying that to him' is bad English as a purported synonym of 'telling him that' but I thought it meant something like 'saying that in his direction' (rather than in someone else's direction) or some such. Bad example and the French 'uns double-confounded the confusion. But what about 'communicating that to him'? Ain't that good E.? Now, my assumption has always been that in the more frequent situation where what is news is what is _going to happen_ to him (presupposed as the default addressee of speech and other acts)it's '... TO him' ('to' stressed, 'him' not), whereas in the less frequent situation where the addressee is news it's '...to HIM' ('him' stressed). Is that wrong? Now you seem to be saying, 'in writing we should use a reinforcement like 'him specifically' or an elaborate circumlocution like 'filling that gap in his knowledge'). Am I getting you wrong?<br /><br />Full name --- see ProfilePodpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-6606164996069860882012-12-20T11:31:58.462+00:002012-12-20T11:31:58.462+00:00Wojciech
Unfortunately, I am saying that to him i...Wojciech<br /><br />Unfortunately, <i>I am saying that to him</i> is unidiomatic English. In the sort of situation where those notions were involved, I'd say the default would be <i>I'm telling him</i>. In speech, we could stress <i><b>telling</b></i> (default) or <i><b>him</b></i> (contrastive). (For other effects we could stress <i>I</i> or even <i>am</i>, but that's another story.)<br /><br />To reproduce the effect in writing, we could use <i>him specifically</i>. (Some sentences might allow <i>personally</i> to do the same job.)<br /><br />There are differences between <i>Tell him the story</i> and <i>Tell the story to him</i>, but not the simple difference in your French examples.<br /><br />Often the most significant factor is pragmatic. <br /><br />• If the speaker believes that the hearer recognises <i>him</i> as the obvious person to be informed, the emphasis falls on the decision to tell (or fact of telling).<br />= 'I'm filling a gap in his knowledge'<br /><br />• If the speaker believes that the hearer recognises that <i>it</i> is knowledge shared by the two of them but unknown to <i>him</i>, them emphasis falls on person being brought in to share the knowledge<br />='I'm bringing him into the circle of those who know'.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-61167520368961142432012-12-20T08:15:28.243+00:002012-12-20T08:15:28.243+00:00Sorry, you gave me more information than I needed....Sorry, you gave me more information than I needed. I was curious whether it were not the case that while the 'default option' for, say, personal pronouns was not to be stressed, for purposes of logical emphasis they could be (stressed). There are languages (Romance, Slavic, Dutch) where there are special unaccented forms of (the spelling of) pronouns, e.g. je le lui dis versus je le dis a` lui, I am saying that to HIM (rather than to someone else). Yet, speakers of various languages (including Polish) tend to in English stress the personal pronoun by fault, that is, they say 'to HIM' where what they mean is 'TO him' 'to'im'. This is a tendency of theirs which I have been fighting since decades, without much success, regrettably. Maybe Prof. Bu labours under a whole family of similar misconstruals and -conceptions.<br /><br />Full true name see ProfilePodpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-86799204148730503992012-12-20T04:39:48.431+00:002012-12-20T04:39:48.431+00:00Chinese certainly has intonation contours with non...Chinese certainly has intonation contours with non-morphemic meaning on which the tones are superimposed.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-40150081545670453162012-12-19T19:03:25.936+00:002012-12-19T19:03:25.936+00:00Wojciech
Prof. Wells is not AN, but, much rather,...Wojciech<br /><br /><i>Prof. Wells is not AN, but, much rather, THE English phonetician. (der englische Phonetiker schlechthin).<br /><br />Follow ME, not HIM, still less HER!<br /><br />I said that not to THEM but to YOU.<br /><br />I gave you this mouse in order for you to keep IT as a pet, not that other ugly beast.</i><br /><br />Yes, that's why I inserted the caveat <i>(under normal circumstances)</i><br /><br />Contrastive stress is a predictable creator of <b>abnormal</b> circumstances. Nothing but the need to contrast with <i>a(n)</i> or <b>zero</b> allows for stressed THE. The same is true for IT. I actually don't find your example plausible, but I can imagine a contrast with the other element in a Subject-Object pair, e.g.<br /><br /><i>Big strong dog, that. Are YOU leading IT or is IT leading YOU?</i><br /><br />The contexts which allows <i>Follow ME</i> etc are closer to 'normal', but I think we can still devise some rules whereby unstressed <i>me</i> is the <b>default</b>>.<br /><br />As starting point, consider the idea that the norm/default is that grammatical words in general and personal pronouns in particular do not carry the focus of information. <br /><br />Thus clauses with <i>follow</i> deviate from the norm in that it's very difficult to frame one without an Object. It's possible in a context when the thing or person followed is visible and obvious to speaker and hearer, but otherwise the hearer need to be informed what is being/is to be followed.<br /><br />Even the two of us are face-to-face and I'm obviously speaking to you, it's not enough for me to say <i>Follow!</i>. Not unless I'm already moving in a clear direction. I can't even say <i>Wait five minutes then follow</i> with any certainty that you'll understand. That's why I say <i>Wait five minutes and follow me.</i> <br /><br />Either stressed or unstressed <i>me</i> is possible, even if there is nobody else for you to follow. I suppose the distinction is between:<br />• Follow ME = 'Don't just make your own decision'<br />• FOLLOW me = 'Don't stay behind'<br /><br />Some grammar words are more resistant to stress-permitting contexts than others. But the three obvious examples are in different word classes: articles <i>the</i> and <i>a(n)</i> and personal pronoun <i>it</i>. I'm not sure that there can be a phonetic rule to account for these three. I suspect that we need some rules of <b>reference</b>. For example:<br /><br /><b><i>the, a(n)</i></b><br />The <b>determiners</b> that signal definite/indefinite reference alone (without, for example, proxemic or deictic reference) do not carry stress — except for strong contrast.<br />The normal equivalents if you need a word to carry stress are <i>the only/the pre-eminent</i> and <i>one</i>.<br /><br /><b><i>it</i></b><br />The <b>pronoun</b> that establish further reference (anaphoric or cataphoric) without signalling proxemic or deictic reference and without referring to speaker or hearer(s) and without stipulating gender do not carry stress —even for contrast, with very rare exceptions. <br />The normal equivalents if you need a word to carry stress are <i>this, that, these, those</i>.<br /><br />The indefinite of <i>it</i> is <i>one</i>: <i>I saw it</i> vs <i>I saw one</i>. it's perfectly possible to stress <i>one</i>, but some contrastive notion of 'only' is pretty sure to follow.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-18729082482076956472012-12-19T12:25:39.622+00:002012-12-19T12:25:39.622+00:00'But this is not a blog about grammar
True, b...'But this is not a blog about grammar<br /><br />True, but the starting point is a global phonetic rule which operates (under normal conditions) on a class of words that's defined grammatically.'<br /><br />We were doing meta-grammar in fact (the issue having been whether personal pronouns were or not grammar words). I thought the problem in hand was one about how the two levels of language (phonetics/phonology and grammar) inter-acted and inter-mingled, rather than rested neatly separated.<br /><br />But to return to the proper topic:<br />I am I must say seriously confused about another point: the logical stress. Do function or grammar words not get it too, sometimes, and does that not militate against the rules set forth above?<br /><br />E.g.:<br /><br />Prof. Wells is not AN, but, much rather, THE English phonetician. (der englische Phonetiker schlechthin).<br /><br />Follow ME, not HIM, still less HER!<br /><br />I said that not to THEM but to YOU.<br /><br />I gave you this mouse in order for you to keep IT as a pet, not that other ugly beast.<br /><br />(Can't for the moment think of any example of 'that' in the sense of 'dasz', 'que', similarly logically stressed.)<br /><br />Is this kind of stress/accent _toto coelo/caelo_ different from what is at issue here?<br /><br />Full name vide Profile<br />Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-18861289163732572662012-12-19T12:05:28.888+00:002012-12-19T12:05:28.888+00:00'For themself, please consult the Longman Dict...'For themself, please consult the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English'<br /><br />By George, I shall. I was unfamiliar with this word to the point of not as little as suspecting that it MIGHT be listed in a Longman's or,for that matter, any other dictionary. I seriously thought it was part of David Crosbie's idiolect.<br /><br />True full name ---> ProfilePodpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-56177916160259265202012-12-19T11:40:39.869+00:002012-12-19T11:40:39.869+00:00Wojciech
Dunno about English, but in some languag...Wojciech<br /><br /><i>Dunno about English, but in some languages there are various modesty pronouns for 'I', e.g. 'ma pomme', 'meine Nichtigkeit' etc. Plus 'they' or 'he' in the sense of 'you' in German, or 'one' for 'I'/'we' in French, plus such things as 'you all', 'you guys', 'youse', plus various ways of marking both inclusive and exclusive 'we' and 'you'.</i><br /><br />For me that's an echo of the old prescriptive vice of defining 'parts of speech' semantically.<br /><br />To be sure, lexical words and phrases can be used in place of personal pronouns but that doesn't automatically make the members of the word class.<br /><br />In English, it's a characteristic of the word class that (with predictable exceptions) the members do not carry stress. The fact that a form like <i>your good self</i> is almost impossible to say without stress is <b>very</b> suggestive. Not only does it suggest that <i>your good self</i> is not a pronoun, it actually suggest that it's a <b>substitute</b> for a pronoun when the context calls for an expression with stress. It also other forms of prominence such as end weight and sends out social signals.<br /><br />Forms such as <i>yous y'all, yous guys</i> are not part of Standard English grammar. As they're not part of my grammar, I have no instinct as to whether they are pronouns or pronoun substitutes. One possible test would be to reverse the rule. Can they be uttered with no stress? I believe I've heard unstressed <i>y'all</i> and <i>you guys</i>. I don't think I've ever heard unstressed <i>yous guys</i>. I don't even think I've heard unstressed <i>yous</i>, though I believe I've heard something like unstressed <b>jɪz</b>.<br /><br />All that said, if <i>your good self</i> is a personal pronoun, and if it can't be completely unstressed, then Barry Cusack's rule <i>“don’t stress personal pronouns”</i> is inapplicable. If we call it a <b>substitute</b> for a personal pronoun then <i>you</i> and the rest are covered by John's rule for <i>'function words'</i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-81903288456253536682012-12-19T11:07:08.133+00:002012-12-19T11:07:08.133+00:00But this is not a blog about grammar
True, but th...<i>But this is not a blog about grammar</i><br /><br />True, but the starting point is a global phonetic rule which operates (under normal conditions) on a class of words that's defined grammatically.<br /><br />If we redefine that class into two or more, the we need two or more rules.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.com