tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post4824906661494388095..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: perfect, but accentedJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-85741038322844395342020-07-08T21:55:54.635+01:002020-07-08T21:55:54.635+01:00Haloo pak^^
Kami dari SENTANAPOKER ingin menawark...Haloo pak^^<br /><br />Kami dari SENTANAPOKER ingin menawarkan pak^^<br /><br />Untuk saat ini kami menerima Deposit Melalui Pulsa ya pak.<br /><br />*untuk minimal deposit 10ribu<br />*untuk minimal Withdraw 25ribu<br /><br />*untuk deposit pulsa kami menerima provider<br />-XL<br />-Telkomsel<br /><br /><br />untuk bonus yang kami miliki kami memiliki<br />*bonus cashback 0,5%<br />*bunus refferal 20%<br />*bonus gebiar bulanan (N-max,samsung Note 10+,Iphone xr 64G,camera go pro 7hero,Apple airpods 2 ,dan freechips)<br /><br />Daftar Langsung Di:<br /><br />SENTANAPOKER<br /><br />Kontak Kami;<br /><br />WA : +855 9647 76509<br />Line : SentanaPoker<br />Wechat : SentanaPokerLivechat Sentanapoker<br /><br />Proses deposit dan withdraw tercepat bisa anda rasakan jika bermain di Sentanapoker. So… ? tunggu apa lagi ? Mari bergabung dengan kami. Pelayanan CS yang ramah dan Proffesional dan pastinya sangat aman juga bisa anda dapatkan di Sentanapoker.yessy haryantohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16503331838637071246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-83738290413010402182012-05-11T02:22:45.269+01:002012-05-11T02:22:45.269+01:00"in the sense that my grandson's skin col..."in the sense that my grandson's skin color will be a problem for him — some people have irrational prejudices about such things."<br /><br />Some have rational prejudices, too--if I'm walking down an alley at nighttime and hear strange voices from behind me, my reaction is justifiably going to be more fearful if those voices are speaking AAVE.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-18571935501957677622012-05-03T11:29:40.742+01:002012-05-03T11:29:40.742+01:00This very much reminds me of a joke (I hope) from ...This very much reminds me of a joke (I hope) from Jack Windsor Lewis's home page: http://www.yek.me.uk/ps21.html<br /><br />Methinks, there's a specific dialectics here in that we'd talk about "perfection" only if there's a slight imperfection.<br /><br />In my native tongue, my grammar has been strongly influenced by my passion for literature; I'm habitually using, even in informal speech, features that otherwise occur nowadays only in formal written language. Playing amateur theatre and reciting poetry and sound poetry -- with accompanying voice and pronunciation exercises -- has given me an actor's articulation. And yet, while I have often heard that my language use were "beautiful" or even "intimidating", nobody has ever told me that my German would be "perfect." In fact, I would find this rather odd. I recently got a lot of very warm compliments on my articulation and intonation by fellow actors. But again, "extremely good", "beautiful", but never "perfect".<br /><br />I wouldn't even know what "perfect" in this context could possibly mean. There's no closed system of language that one could master "with perfection". On the contrary, in dealing with language artistically in the context of poetry and performance, it is precisely the openness and incompleteness of the system that comes to the foreground. When I'm preparing my lines for the theatre, or when I'm preparing the recital of a poem with an ear and mouth that have been schooled by sound poetry, then intonation and even articulation reveal themselves to be a clay that needs to be formed and not some already fixed standard, carved in stone. In other words: whoever talks about "perfection" in this context lacks the competence to make that statement.<br /><br />But maybe it's not necessary to go to the extremes of artistic language use. I'd already find it very odd if somebody complimented just any native speaker on his or her native tongue being "perfect".<br /><br />On the other hand, I have often heard (and said my self) that some L2 speaker's German would be "perfect". In all these cases, there was a slight imperfection giving away that the speaker is not a native speaker.<br /><br />I'd be interested to know whether some language features are more important than others for perceived language competence. And whether these vary with each language! For instance, I'm convinced that for German phrase intonation and the mastery of syntactical word ordering are much, much more important than articulation or the dreaded declensions (nobody gets these right, anyways). Unfortunately, I have only anecdotal "evidence":<br /><br />- An American friend of mine, an opera singer, who has been living in Germany for more than ten years. Her articulation is flawless and her grammar doesn't exhibit any more irregularities compared to a school book grammar than that of any native speaker. However, slight 'oddities' in her phrase intonation are giving her away as American.<br /><br />- A Portuguese friend of mine who came to Germany as a young adult and has been living here for more than thirty years. In informal speech, he easily passes as a native speaker, at least on a good day. His writing, however, reveals that he never really got a grasp on declensions.Utishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14842422973133567275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-46640050891606998972012-05-03T07:52:37.575+01:002012-05-03T07:52:37.575+01:00She could have been Polish---a Polish actress inst...She could have been Polish---a Polish actress instructed to speak English not with her real accent but a slightly modified one, which, however, sounds 'more Polish' to American ears.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-61486084908275199862012-05-03T07:50:44.439+01:002012-05-03T07:50:44.439+01:00David,
Regarding Ms. Streep's Polish accent h...David,<br /><br />Regarding Ms. Streep's Polish accent here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APIyZ-t7nOg<br /><br />it's quite good but leaning towards Russian (a Russian who had long been speaking Polish is speaking English as it were), harsh 'h's, overpalatalisation of certain consonants, but on the whole as I say quite good. The biggest give-away of course is the totally unPolish way she says 'mięso' (meat), it is as if she wished to ridicule Polish.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-72316423641283640412012-05-02T11:57:01.676+01:002012-05-02T11:57:01.676+01:00David, have you really found it vompelling? I thou...David, have you really found it vompelling? I thought her acting and accent were a horrid farce. While she was playing Baroness Thatcher.Duchesse de Guermanteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12198316853449400624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-21106035633005391212012-05-01T15:44:14.797+01:002012-05-01T15:44:14.797+01:00David,
your statement above is an _answer_ to Jo...David, <br /><br />your statement above is an _answer_ to John's question (if possibly one that may disappoint John), meseemeth, rather than its invalidation.<br /><br />Interestingly, most contributions to this topic disregarded the 'foreignness' aspect of the issue (L's accent) and focussed on how wonderful various _native_ (i.e., Anglophone) accents in English are. Well, no doubt they are, but L's is not a native accent, that was the issue, in my understanding. RP may now be in low esteem, but the alternative is Estuary or Geordie, or perhaps Appalachian, or (why not) Stewart Island (NZ), but not the accent of Mzensk or some such place... . In English, that is, in Russian it's the other way (a)round.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-17321441599390479062012-04-29T19:17:52.867+01:002012-04-29T19:17:52.867+01:00CORRECTION
far mess depth
Should be
far less de...CORRECTION<br /><br /><i>far mess depth</i><br /><br />Should be<br /><br /><i>far <b>less</b> depth</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-5245375341540176232012-04-29T19:16:07.904+01:002012-04-29T19:16:07.904+01:00paolomac
But, I am having trouble thinking of any...paolomac<br /><br /><i>But, I am having trouble thinking of any foreign actor who learnt English as an adult who can credibly be cast as a native English speaker.</i><br /><br />It depends what you mean by '<i>plausibly'</i>. Plausible to whom?<br /><br />The accents we know are our own and a handful that we hear all the time or belong to speakers that we relate to emotionally. Additionally, there are a number of features that we recognise from accents that we know in far mess depth. If we hear an accent as implausible, it need not be a question of the speaker falling short of perfection; it may be that we recognise a feature that belongs in a different accent. <br /><br />In a vast number of cases — though not necessarily the most communal cases — the hearer doesn't throughly know the 'true' accent and/or doesn't recognise the 'foreign' features, which may, of course be very subtle. <br /><br />For example, I doubt whether I could spot a Hungarian with a decent New Zealand accent — even though a New Zealander, or indeed a Hungarian, might find it obvious for what it was.<br /><br />Meryl Streep recently persuaded most audiences that she sounded like someone we've all heard extensively — Margaret Hilda Thatcher. In <i>Sophie's Choice</i> I was persuaded that she was Polish — even if she was less 'plausible' to a Pole.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-44629636336837543102012-04-29T04:28:56.825+01:002012-04-29T04:28:56.825+01:00@David Crosbie
That 'Unknown' comment was...@David Crosbie<br /><br />That 'Unknown' comment was mine. I'm not sure if we disagree or if we are speaking at cross-purposes.<br /><br />I was referring to the near impossibility of speaking a foreign language without an accent if you learn it as an adult.<br /><br />Mimicking other accents in your own language is much easier - perhaps we have a better ear for the subtle differences, and our mouths already have the right muscles formed to simulate the varieties in sound.<br /><br />But, I am having trouble thinking of any foreign actor who learnt English as an adult who can credibly be cast as a native English speaker.<br /><br />And I am not able to judge how good English-speakers' pronunciation is in other languages. Kristin Scott Thomas certainly is cast as a Frenchwoman in French films, but I would be keen to know if French native speakers detect any accent in her French (and whether she learned French as an adult, for that matter).paolomachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16643969573126659897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-71987312614780787772012-04-28T11:20:49.241+01:002012-04-28T11:20:49.241+01:00Unknown
I think complete absence of accent is nea...Unknown<br /><br /><i>I think complete absence of accent is near impossible for an adult learner.</i><br /><br />Tell that to the acting profession!David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-70862154948760995152012-04-28T03:53:48.210+01:002012-04-28T03:53:48.210+01:00This is a fascinating discussion. It always grate...This is a fascinating discussion. It always grates me when I read spy novels or watch spy films where they suggest that Agent So-and-So can speak a foreign language without any hint of an accent. For all my life-long efforts and passion for a particular L2, and my layman's interest in phonology, which leave me to strive to speak with as little trace of an accent as possible, I think complete absence of accent is near impossible for an adult learner. <br /><br />It is not simply the fact that physically it is harder to form certain foreign sounds, it is also that it is harder to hear the differences. For the untrained, accent deafness has a strong impact. For over 15 years, I had no idea that my Australian accent had me pronouncing words with -el- with a TRAP vowel instead of a DRESS vowel - and as a consequence, I didn't hear myself doing the same thing in French, even though native-speakers (and even other English speakers) would clearly hear it as an incorrect pronunciation in French.<br /><br />The other side is the difficulty in teaching pronunciation in English (at least by immersion) because of the variety of native speaker accents. We have long since abandoned value judgments about particular accents in native English speakers, but I suspect they are still strong in ESL circles. It always seems a little odd to encounter a French speaker here in Australia who has picked up broad Australian vowels.<br /><br />Imagine if Lebedev spoke predominantly with a Scottish accent with slight traces of Russian...paolomachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16643969573126659897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-21627479318993234422012-04-28T03:08:02.098+01:002012-04-28T03:08:02.098+01:00One difference is that you can achieve spurious pe...One difference is that you can achieve spurious perfection by <b>avoiding</b> grammatical and lexical choices where there's any danger of producing a deviant or inappropriate form. <br /><br />Those those who think that way recognise perfection up to the point where a speaker makes a single grammatical mistake or error — perhaps also up to the point where the speaker makes a wrong lexical choice. It's a poor measure of the speaker's <b>skills</b>, but it's undoubtedly a measure — indeed an objective measure.<br /><br />It makes much more sense to assess what a speaker <b>can do</b> — relegating the error count to a secondary judgement.<br /><br />Pronunciation, by contrast, is a skill that can only be judged on the basis of the speaker's total output. Yes you can make an arbitrary inventory of forms that you will consider as errors (or mistakes, if you recognise a difference), but it's inevitably subjective. I suppose it's theoretically possible to devise speech-recognition programs with a 'cliff-drop' cut-off between acceptable and unacceptable, but could we really trust the stupid computer?<br /><br />You can't bluff perfection in pronunciation by avoiding all the difficult sounds. Unless <b>all</b> your sounds are what is called 'accent-free', the features perceived as 'accent' pervade everything you say.<br /><br />I used to know a French woman with a wonderful English accent which she'd acquired as a little girl in what was then Malaya. She forgot all her English when the family returned to France. But when she started English at school she recalled her pronunciation skill. Grammar and lexis was different; she had to learn them all over again.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-9325608333824389682012-04-28T02:39:20.710+01:002012-04-28T02:39:20.710+01:00"In English we're used to quite a lot of ...<i>"In English we're used to quite a lot of variation in native-speakers' accents"</i><br /><br />Indeed. I wouldn't accuse a New Zealander of having anything less than perfect English, even if he does call me Ellen.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08160116779696668195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-86606877490570851892012-04-27T09:55:32.361+01:002012-04-27T09:55:32.361+01:00Whether I agree (or rather, find it useful) or not...Whether I agree (or rather, find it useful) or not, I understand why people are strictly prescriptive, or deny themselves any judgment and evaluation, or have a reasonable approach, eg defining "correct" as whatever will be felt to be native by native speakers etc.<br /><br />But I don't understand why you make a difference between grammar and lexis on the one hand and phonetics on the other, and actually seem to see them as different dimensions.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-31646866003228012822012-04-26T23:33:20.052+01:002012-04-26T23:33:20.052+01:00Well, I for one don't accept the question as a...Well, I for one don't accept the question as a valid one.<br /><br />The English that one speaks (or writes) is either without formal grammatical/lexical error — 'perfect' — or not. The criterion of 'perfection 's stark — I would say misguided — but clear.<br /><br />Pronunciation is not <b>one's English~</b> but <b>what one does to ones English</b>. One could speak perhaps of <i>underperformance</i> but the formal product of performance is either without error or not. <br /><br />Of course 'perfect English' can be poorly pronounced. Or it can be beautifully pronounced. But there's no conceivable criterion of 'perfect' performance — no agreed criterion of what might constitute an 'error'.<br /><br />Since Henry Sweet, if not earlier, no phonetician has done more than <b>describe</b> a standard — in the case of British speakers RP. A single formal deviation is not an <b>error</b>. Popular sentiment has reached the point when strictly defined RP is not even <b>respected</b> by a majority of British speakers, let alone emulated.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-79828923375398463322012-04-26T22:01:53.879+01:002012-04-26T22:01:53.879+01:00She was born in Thuringia, but did not speak with ...She was born in Thuringia, but did not speak with a noticeable local accent by all reports. Her aunts, who raised her, required her to always speak the standard dialect rather than the local one. They were the only family of bourgeois origin in the village, and clearly believed that her father, who was away in America for most of her childhood, had married beneath him.<br /><br />As far as I know there are no such recordings. If they existed, they would be reel-to-reel tape.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-39239570921393500592012-04-26T18:07:01.016+01:002012-04-26T18:07:01.016+01:00Have we, as a result, come any closer to providing...Have we, as a result, come any closer to providing a convincing answer to John's (slightly indignant) question:<br /><br />'How, then, is it that someone can speak perfect English, but with mistakes in pronunciation?'<br /><br />We haven't, methinks. We haven't even really tried. Instead, we have question'd the accuracy of the word 'mistake' therein. If his (Lebedev's) accent in is various ways off-standard (Lipman above), that is no reason apply the word 'mistake'. Am I wrong?Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-49196404693193412532012-04-26T11:50:46.045+01:002012-04-26T11:50:46.045+01:00I'd accept a softer word that inferior, but I ...I'd accept a softer word that <i>inferior</i>, but I do think that Lebedev's lecture was a <b>less successful</b> achievement of <b>the same aspiration</b>.<br /><br />It's entirely possible that Lebedev doesn't in Gill Brown's phrase <i>sincerely want to be a chameleon</i>. He may not aspire to sound like David Cameron; he may be happier to sound like a foreigner with extremely good English. It certainly gets him compliments — from Michael White and no doubt others. But I've no doubt he would prefer to sound <b>consistently</b> as near-native as his Levenson Enquiry performance.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-53186070072444803382012-04-26T09:34:43.850+01:002012-04-26T09:34:43.850+01:00Ah, "inferior" sounds so hard. His grasp...Ah, "inferior" sounds so hard. His grasp of English is excellent anyway etc.<br /><br />In the clip you link to, his Russian intereferences are less pronounced, especially in his intonation, which is more naturally English than in his speech in the other clip. Nevertheless, there's a clearly Russian accent in many details. An issue I didn't mention above is that he seems to have a "hard p" sometimes. (English learners of Russian sometimes aren't aware of the fact that there aren't just English-like versus palatal(ised) consonants, but that the first group is actually velarised or has a retracted tongue.)Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-57844142910395963542012-04-25T22:48:37.088+01:002012-04-25T22:48:37.088+01:00As I suspected, the performance you saw is inferio...As I suspected, the performance you saw is inferior to the performance that Michael White observed. I repeat the link for some of what Whit eactually saw and heard: <br /><br /><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/video/2012/apr/23/evgeny-lebedev-leveson-inquiry-video" rel="nofollow"> Lebedev at Levenson</a> (Click)<br /><br />In a prepared lecture, delivery is a problem even for native speakers, so small wonder that it brings out the worst in non-native speakers. <br /><br />At the Levenson Enquiry, Lebedev was speaking spontaneously and in interaction with native speaker. The situation brought out his considerable skills in responding to another speaker, in formulating and reformulating his arguments, in disguising hesitations with native-like pause fillers, in pitching his conversational tone to that of his interlocutor.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-3239706795841908972012-04-25T20:58:42.498+01:002012-04-25T20:58:42.498+01:00I listened to parts of this, too, and I can hear a...I listened to parts of this, too, and I can hear a very clear Russian accent, mostly in suprasegmental features such as the very Russian intonation and a variability in vowel length that corresponds to Russian, but also in specific sounds, eg <b>w</b>, his diphthongs, <b>ɪ</b> too close and not very central, prevocalic hard l (Russian-type, not American/Irish) etc.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-70844604947942961102012-04-25T19:24:37.995+01:002012-04-25T19:24:37.995+01:00I have just listened to (part of) this:
http://ww...I have just listened to (part of) this:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tabkotGSIis<br /><br />and I must say I can't hear very much by way of foreign accent, or Russian accent. If you know he's Russian, you can (i. e. I can) hear here and there various small points, e.g. his 'sh's and 'ch's, and sometimes a LOT vowel pronounced a slighly Russian-ish way, but other than that I'd say he's ... well... nearly-perfect. His intonation is perhaps sort of strange sometimes, but given the solemn and artificial, sermon-like character of his speech, well... a true Englishman would have had a different tone of voice perhaps but that's on a different level of language (I believe Mr. Wells has mentioned this aspect of things too, above).Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-30321917692781254822012-04-25T18:21:03.508+01:002012-04-25T18:21:03.508+01:00Well, competence perhaps, thus 'can do'. B...Well, competence perhaps, thus 'can do'. But abstraction made from 'can',<br /><br />expressing him/herself spontaneously, very fluently and precisely, differentiating finer shades of meaning even in the most complex situations<br /><br />sounds like a tall order. Human beings fall short of getting their minds 'round those 'most complex situations', not to speak of articulating themselves 'fluently and precisely'. Unless, of course, they are trained to speak and think in 'phrases toutes fait'ees'. Rem tene, verba sequentur, as Cato the Elder was in the habit of advising; the problem is 'rem tenere', even in not the most complex of situations. Maybe some politicians are glib and smug enough to be really at C2 level?Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-7784412565348692382012-04-25T18:03:29.729+01:002012-04-25T18:03:29.729+01:00''ve sometimes deliberately used a worse p...''ve sometimes deliberately used a worse pronunciation in languages I'm not proficient in precisely to prevent listeners from overestimating my knowledge of the language'<br /><br />I do this quite often and for the same reason. Plus, I use a rather heavish foreign accent in certain languages in which I have to quote something or read aloud to students or other partners whose native language the given language is NOT, for instance German, even if I don't have this accent in the language in question while speaking 'normally'. For instance in German I don't reduce my 'r's and such-like.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.com