tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post6184412098682710927..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: orthonymityJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-3178115791596272402020-06-23T11:18:41.630+01:002020-06-23T11:18:41.630+01:00Haloo pak^^
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Pelayanan CS yang ramah dan Proffesional dan pastinya sangat aman juga bisa anda dapatkan di Sentanapoker.yessy haryantohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16503331838637071246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-66322510307948721172019-08-13T12:07:56.651+01:002019-08-13T12:07:56.651+01:00You need to navigate here to learn how to write a ...You need to <a href="https://samedaypaper.org/blog/term-paper-writing" rel="nofollow">navigate here</a> to learn how to write a decent term paper! Cheers!Taylor Barahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04054776280759216446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-16288158963703616062012-09-14T07:21:54.693+01:002012-09-14T07:21:54.693+01:00Adrian Mole's grandmother actually does say &q...Adrian Mole's grandmother actually does say "That is very disgusting", which I always thought was a wonderful expression.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-91710902690068858612012-09-07T18:33:38.667+01:002012-09-07T18:33:38.667+01:00Easy to understand, Ellen, but wrong. Quite does n...Easy to understand, Ellen, but wrong. <i>Quite</i> does <b>not</b> mean 'very' in BrE. <br /><br />The examples they give:<br /><br /><i>The organizers have achieved something quite extraordinary.<br />The hotel was dirty and the food was quite disgusting.</i><br /><br />are simply examples of 'completely'. In BrE we can't say <i>very extraordinary</i> or <i>very disgusting</i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-53479731123359145452012-09-07T15:45:02.318+01:002012-09-07T15:45:02.318+01:00The difference between British and American usage ...The difference between British and American usage doesn't in any way suggest Americans would understand "quite dead" as less than fully deal.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/quite" rel="nofollow">This dictionary</a> has an easy to understand explantion of the difference.<br /><br />"In British English quite usually means 'fairly': The film was quite enjoyable, although some of the acting was weak. When American speakers say quite, they usually mean 'very': We've examined the figures quite thoroughly. Speakers of British English sometimes use quite to mean 'very', but only before words with an extreme meaning: The whole experience was quite amazing."Ellen Kozisekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16856539181411664278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-91049579494292720262012-09-05T14:14:53.748+01:002012-09-05T14:14:53.748+01:00Your right, Philip Newton, on both points, I am so...Your right, Philip Newton, on both points, I am sorry.<br /><br />labial fricative voiced consonant; mid-back rounded vowel; alveolo-palatal voiced approximant consonant; alveolo-palatal affricate voiceless consonant; mid-front unrounded vowel; fricative velar non-palatal voiceless consonant; retroflex fricative voiced consonant; mid-front unrounded vowel; labiovelar voiced approximant consonant; open central unrounded vowel; alveolo-palatal nasal voiced consonant; mid-front unrounded vowel; alveolar affricate voiceless consonantPodpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-38673895807119883402012-09-05T13:16:00.283+01:002012-09-05T13:16:00.283+01:00@Wojciech: Is the fourth sound really a fricative ...@Wojciech: Is the fourth sound really a fricative rather than an affricate, and the last one really a dental affricate (i.e. having a second component of [θ]) rather than an alveolar one (with a second component of [s])?Philip Newtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17991519523477002229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-68163446434340160012012-09-05T13:03:20.396+01:002012-09-05T13:03:20.396+01:00which makes your situation very different from min...which makes your situation very different from mine, John W. Cowan. You use that (full) version of your full name under which you are unequivocally recognisable only sometimes (namely, on the front-page of your books). Everywhere else, you are a John Cowan among many---or let's say, quite (in the British sense of 'quite') a few. I, by contrast, am called just (see below) in the fullest version of my full name, and can't say 'maybe it's someone else, you have left out the middle name'---coz I simply got none. You are in relatively comfortable position, I am not.<br /><br />Librarians do like it, you're right. But exactly that pushes many authors who would otherwise be known as 'John Smith', to use pseudonyms.<br /><br />One serious, Kierkegaardian, reason to use pseudonyms is that you sometimes want to say certain things so that they might have been said, as the German says 'in den Raum stellen' (these things) and not so that people might say: XY has said that (autos epha, ipse dixit, or the other way round: it HE says that then it's certainly wrong).<br /><br />labial fricative voiced consonant; mid-back rounded vowel; alveolo-palatal voiced approximant consonant; alveolo-palatal fricative voiceless consonant; mid-front unrounded vowel; fricative velar non-palatal voiceless consonant; retroflex fricative voiced consonant; mid-front unrounded vowel; labiovelar voiced approximant consonant; open central unrounded vowel; alveolo-palatal nasal voiced consonant; mid-front unrounded vowel; dental affricate voiceless consonantPodpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-87154566061312766622012-09-05T09:05:15.222+01:002012-09-05T09:05:15.222+01:00I am very likely the only John Woldemar Cowan in t...I am very likely the only John Woldemar Cowan in the world, though I only use my full name like this on my books (librarians like it if authors have unique names, I'm told).John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-65517244425433362462012-09-05T09:02:43.353+01:002012-09-05T09:02:43.353+01:00I have never understood this supposed semantic dif...I have never understood this supposed semantic difference. I find it hard to believe that any American thinks that <i>quite dead</i> means 'somewhat dead'. For me, at least, it must mean 'unequivocally dead'.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-46791465290008817602012-09-05T05:17:45.400+01:002012-09-05T05:17:45.400+01:00Sorry, read wrong, missed a "not". Of c...Sorry, read wrong, missed a "not". Of course, it doesn't help that your giving me tons and tons of detail I didn't ask for in response to a simple question, with a short answer, that was answered long ago.Ellen Kozisekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16856539181411664278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-17753602832894409082012-09-05T00:10:19.459+01:002012-09-05T00:10:19.459+01:00Ellen
Quite good means neither 'very good nor...Ellen<br /><br /><i>Quite good</i> means neither 'very good nor 'almost good' in BrE. The only possible meaning is 'somewhat good'.<br /><br />Where collocation comes in is that <i>quite</i> in the sense of 'completely' can't combine with <i>good</i> in BrE.<br /><br />In BrE <i>quite</i> never means 'to a high degree' — although in some contexts the sense of 'completely' may amount to much the same thing.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-80825434101154689362012-09-04T21:21:20.079+01:002012-09-04T21:21:20.079+01:00'Quite good' doesn't mean 'almost ...'Quite good' doesn't mean 'almost good' in the UK either. It's 'not quite good' that means that.Steve Doerrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18210787261745134371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-78586129177101120662012-09-04T18:55:33.173+01:002012-09-04T18:55:33.173+01:00The difference between "quite good" mean...The difference between "quite good" meaning "very good" (American meaning) and meaning "almost good" (British meaning) is a real difference in meaning, not simply a matter of what adjectives it can collocate with.<br /><br />In the U.S., "quite" does not mean "almost". It doesn't mean "completely", but it means to a high degree. So "quite good" would not mean almost good.<br /><br />And while we wouldn't say "a quite good book", "quite a good book" is fine, and "that book is quite good" is certainly something I might say, and it would be a strong compliment. No ambiguity.<br /><br />And I'm thinking this is probably best not to extend out this off topic conversation too far. Really, I just wanted to know what Ed meant, and I got my answer.Ellen Kozisekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16856539181411664278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-21669711818595040012012-09-04T16:48:39.657+01:002012-09-04T16:48:39.657+01:00CORRECTION
but for use it is grammatical.
What ...CORRECTION <br /><br /><i>but for use it is grammatical.</i><br /><br />What I meant was<br /><br /><i>but for <b>us</b> it is grammatical.</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-23124246363826433122012-09-04T16:45:19.875+01:002012-09-04T16:45:19.875+01:00Ellen
So, if I understand right, the difference i...Ellen<br /><br /><i>So, if I understand right, the difference in meaning between BrE and AmE is only when it modifies an adjective ("quite good").</i><br /><br />In BrE, <i>quite</i> with an adjective can be either sense — not for all adjectives, of course. Among the examples chosen by COBUILD after statistical analysis were: <i>quite still, quite sure, quite right</i>. I suspect some of these collocations are possible in AmE. <br /><br />We can't use <i>quite good</i> to mean 'good in every particular' but we <b>can</b> use <i>not quite good</i> to mean 'almost good'.<br /> <br />Again, I suspect the main difference between BrE and AmE is at the detailed level of what can collocate with particular adjectives.<br /><br />According to the OED there is a difference when the adjective is 'attributive' (immediately before the noun it modifies). Both BrE and AmE can say <i>quite a good book</i>. BrE can in addition say <i>a quite good book</i>. It's a less common construction, but for use it is grammatical. The OED thinks you Americans don't say it.<br /><br />One use of <i>quite</i> + ADJECTIVE is completely unambiguous. Although <i>quite dark</i> can mean 'somewhat dark' or 'completely dark', there's no such uncertainty with <i>'It's quite quite dark</i>.<br /><br />In practice, the ambiguous cases are not ambiguous when spoken aloud. In the 'somewhat' sense, the adjective bears the main stress. In the 'completely' sense, both <i>quite</i> and the adjective are fully stressed. Similarly with the sentence that started this, <i>I can quite believe</i>, there is full stress on <i>quite</i>.<br /><br />Not surprisingly, <i>quite</i> seems to be avoided in most styles of writing. The conversational style of blog-posting made Ed fell comfortable using the word without the support of intonation.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-13321780038182752872012-09-04T13:56:07.511+01:002012-09-04T13:56:07.511+01:00Oh, wait, just saw David Crosbie's 2nd post ma...Oh, wait, just saw David Crosbie's 2nd post made hours after that first one. That I think would have answered it. The first one did not at all answer the question.<br /><br />So, if I understand right, the difference in meaning between BrE and AmE is only when it modifies an adjective ("quite good"). When it modifies a verb, there's a difference in when it can be used, but not of meaning.Ellen Kozisekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16856539181411664278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-48059736666050836912012-09-04T13:49:46.096+01:002012-09-04T13:49:46.096+01:00No, Ed, he did not answer my question. My questio...No, Ed, he did not answer my question. My question still remained. He gave lots of information of the usage of "quite". But he did not tell me what you meant in that particular sentence, which is what the question was. I did not reply to him, hoping you would come on here and, even with his reply, answer my question. Disappointed that you think he answered my question, but grateful that you did answer it.Ellen Kozisekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16856539181411664278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-15022402120276479032012-09-04T12:49:33.454+01:002012-09-04T12:49:33.454+01:00An excellent response by David Crosbie. You'v...An excellent response by David Crosbie. You've answered Ellen's question with more detail than I could've hoped for. Many thanks :)<br /><br />I was saying that I can fully believe that any offence was unintentional. <br /><br />Lipman: you had my hopes up for a while about editing comments after publication. It's a shame that this is infeasible. It was a funny captcha.<br /><br />Ed AveyardEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04081841460525341333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-61698943610015601892012-09-04T12:08:55.761+01:002012-09-04T12:08:55.761+01:00Ellen
With many verbs quite in either sense just ...Ellen<br /><br /><i>With many verbs quite in either sense just won't collocate. You can't say *He quite arrived, *They quite know it, *E quite equals mc squared</i><br /><br />I've just re-read this and spotted the flaw. All of these verbs can collocate with <i>not quite</i>. Thus<br /><br /><i>He didn't quite arrive.</i> (stylistically iffy but almost OK)<br /><i>They don't quite know it<br />E doesn't quite equal mc squared</i> (false but idiomatic and grammatical)<br /><br />So the difference between BrE and AmE seems to be which verbs collocate with both <i>not quite</i> and <i>quite</i>, and which verbs collocate only with <i>not quite</i>.<br /><br /><b>Believe</b> falls in the first group in BrE and the latter in AmE.<br />David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-60713153293670216252012-09-04T10:20:04.821+01:002012-09-04T10:20:04.821+01:00Ugh, just reread that last transcription and have ...Ugh, just reread that last transcription and have spotted no fewer than five errors or inconsistencies. bʊt ðɛn, aɪ æm ɪmˈfætɪkli ˈnɒt ə ˌfɒnəˈtɪʃn̩, ɔ:r ˈiːvən ə ˈlɪŋgwɪst fə ðæʔ mætə, səʊ aɪ səˈpəʊz juː ˈʃʊdn̩t biː tuː səˈpraɪzd ət maɪ ˌkækˈhændɪdnəs<br />Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10627322349797202893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-57104681561717720422012-09-04T01:59:42.272+01:002012-09-04T01:59:42.272+01:00Ellen
According to the OED, since about 1300 quit...Ellen<br /><br />According to the OED, since about 1300 <i>quite</i> has meant something like 'completely'. The earliest quote for <i>not quite</i> is 1765. The meaning 'up to a point' seems to be a recent development early in the nineteenth century.<br /><br />A dictionary (COBUILD) for advanced foreign learners based on frequency analysis of contemporary texts presents some of the same facts but differently. Four broad uses are identified as essential for advanced learners. The most common is <br /><br />'1 <b>Quite</b> means to a fairly great extent or to a greater extent than average.'<br /><br />Next in frequency comes<br /><br />'<b>2 Quite</b> is used <b>2.1</b> to emphasise the complete degree or extent to which something is true or is the case EG <i>I stood quite still ... You're quite sure you don't mind? ... You're quite right ... I saw its driver quite clearly ... I quite understand ... Oh I quite agree ... That's quite enough of that — pull yourself together ... I quite frankly am too miserable to care</i> <br /><br />(The quotes are all 'raw data' from banks of collected text. Senses <b>2.2, 2.3</b> are of <i>not quite</i>.)<br /><br />The 'somewhat' meaning is pretty restricted with verbs. In BrE, and I think in AmE, it collocates easily with <i>like</i> and semantically related <i>enjoy, dislike</i> etc, but I can't think of many other verbs. <br /><br />With many verbs <i>quite</i> in either sense just won't collocate. You can't say <i>*He quite arrived, *They quite know it, E quite equals mc squared</i><br /><br />The verbs we collocate with<i>quite</i> in the sense of 'fully' denote<br />• ALWAYS a state or action that is capable of being complete or incomplete<br />• USUALLY the result of conscious thought or action<br />• MORE OFTEN THAN NO with subject <i>I</i><br />• OFTEN an empathic response <i>I quite understand, I quite agree, I can quite imagine, I quite accept,</i><br />• SOMETIMES a disclaimer <i>I quite accept , I quite concede</i><br /><br />The verb <i>appreciate</i> has very different senses, so <i>I quite appreciate</i> is ambiguous between 'I rather enjoy' and 'I fully understand'.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-10214741141634348892012-09-04T00:53:56.664+01:002012-09-04T00:53:56.664+01:00Ed, help out an American who doesn't understan...Ed, help out an American who doesn't understand the British usage of "quite". When you say "I can quite believe that you didn't mean to cause offence" are you saying you can fully believe it, or somewhat believe it? (In my idiolect, and I believe in American English in general, "quite" cannot be used there; I actually initially misread it as "can't quite".)Ellen Kozisekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16856539181411664278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-78833091309679317932012-09-03T23:20:47.469+01:002012-09-03T23:20:47.469+01:00In the Anglophone countries my name is 'VOYche...In the Anglophone countries my name is 'VOYcheck ZeeLAYnyeck'. Phonologically (Polish) it's:<br /><br />labial fricative voiced consonant; mid-back rounded vowel; alveolo-palatal voiced approximant consonant; alveolo-palatal fricative voiceless consonant; mid-front unrounded vowel; fricative velar non-palatal voiceless consonant; END OF GIVEN NAME retroflex (they say, but I can't believe it) fricative voiced consonant; mid-front unrounded vowel; labiovelar voiced approximant consonant; open central unrounded vowel; alveolo-palatal nasal voiced consonant; mid-front unrounded vowel; dental affricate voiceless consonant; END OF SURNAME.<br /><br />So, given the nature of this blog, this should be enough by way of presentation.<br /><br />I think a better idea would've been for Prof. Wells to ask us our full-names or even our 'identities', passport-numbers and what not just for himself. I have some experience with commenting of this sort both ortho- and pseudonymously, and can say that all things taken into account the latter is better. I think the orthonymity is all right for people who are to such a degree "out of this world" that no-one knows them and no-one can google them out---or with people of such a towering authority and esteem as our host's. Much, much closer to the former I am alas the only bearer (to my knowledge, at least, but it is well-founded) of my full-name on Earth, and thus easily googleable, with all the unpleasant consequences thinkable and not-yet-thought-of, great many of them arising from the fact, not that I would write either indecent or stupid things here, but that the literary convention for these postings is not exactly---nor should be---anywhere close to that of a contribution to a learnèd journal or such. But people (on the average) usually don't understand about different conventions and tend to take everything seriously.<br /><br />Also, speaking for myself I am not at all curious about anyone's name or identity. On the contrary, I'll try to forget a.s.a.p. who the clinicallylinguist is, otherwise I'd be too shy to exchange opinions with him. To mention just one example. One of the advantages of such places as this 'un is that we can discuss matters in a free and democratic manner, not caring if we are not are not Doctores Oxonienses or Grantabrigenses or what have you. Prof. Wells' situation is different, because he is not just one of us: he's the 'boss', so it's all right that we know who she is (although this blog would've been interesting without that knowledge too).<br /><br />Also, imho Myerson's article is about really nasty places on 'real-life', 'serious' matters, such as politics, money, power, sex, ... you name them ... where people sometimes are really offensive, I haven't observed anything like that so far here.<br /><br />One important philosopher of the XIX century spent much thought on, and put to test, various forms of both pseudo- and orthonymity: Kierkegaard. I'd recommend him for the issue in question.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-54264551696230619262012-09-03T23:16:24.341+01:002012-09-03T23:16:24.341+01:00Depending on which browser I use, I even have diff...Depending on which browser I use, I even have difficulties to delete posts. The edited comments, exclusively about funny captchas, are edited before they're published: I write something, see the funny captcha, then copy the captcha but click on "edit" instead of "publish", then add the EDIT line and click "publish". I'm not sure it's actually possible to edit comments afterwards.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.com