tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post632688132877828785..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: VPM 101John Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-20789064930391080692020-06-23T11:18:31.980+01:002020-06-23T11:18:31.980+01:00Haloo pak^^
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Pelayanan CS yang ramah dan Proffesional dan pastinya sangat aman juga bisa anda dapatkan di Sentanapoker.yessy haryantohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16503331838637071246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-77184585367314317832012-09-13T19:25:59.785+01:002012-09-13T19:25:59.785+01:00If anyone's still reading, I think Emilio is r...If anyone's still reading, I think Emilio is right in his explanation. The English contrast between /s/ and /z/ is not simply between voiced and voiceless sounds. In final /z/ as in "lies", the voicing is not maintained in the final phase, so it would be difficult to distinguish between "lice" and "lies" based on the voicing alone, but there are other cues like diphthong length and articulatory strength to help us.<br /><br />When you whisper, you can still distinguish pairs like "lice"/"lies" and "sue"/"zoo", even if the /z/ is phonetically a voiceless [s], because it is still weaker than /s/. It may be convenient to use the terms fortis and lenis in such cases.<br /><br />The Korean /s/ (as in "Seoul") is lenis voiceless, so for English speakers a good way to imitate this is as a whispered /z/. A simple English /s/ would be heard as Korean /ss/, the fortis counterpart (as in "Ssangyong").Jongseonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12558136756392729306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-67120981709845340292012-09-07T17:57:41.473+01:002012-09-07T17:57:41.473+01:00To me l̥ simply sounds shorter than ɬ.To me <b>l̥</b> simply sounds shorter than <b>ɬ</b>.Michael Eversonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16882679137179765872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-85327386950073388192012-09-07T03:37:17.280+01:002012-09-07T03:37:17.280+01:00I believe that Welsh can contrast voiced and unvoi...I believe that Welsh can contrast voiced and unvoiced nasals at the start of a cluster:<br /><br /><b>və ŋloː</b> (<i>fy nglo</i>, my coal)<br /><b>və ŋ̊loː</b> (<i>fy nghlo</i>, my lock)<br /><b>və ˈnrəsɔr</b> (<i>fy nryswr</i>, my doorkeeper)<br /><b>və ˈn̥rəsɔr</b> (<i>fy nhryswr</i>, my treasure)<br /><b>və mlaːs</b> (<i>fy mlas</i>, my taste)<br /><b>və m̥laːs</b> (<i>fy mhlas</i>, my palace)<br /><br />These occur in a grammatical context that calls for nasal mutation of the initial consonant (the base words being <i>glo</i>, <i>clo</i>, <i>dryswr</i>, <i>tryswr</i>, <i>blas</i> and <i>plas</i> respectively).<br /><br />Incidentally, if the usual rules of consonant mutation are strictly applied, it also seems possible that the following exotic sequence of nasals could occur (though not contrasting with anything in particular):<br /><br /><b>əŋ ŋ̊nɛˈwəɬɨn ...</b> (<i>yng nghnewyllyn yr atom</i>, "in the nucleus of the atom")<br /><br />though I have a sneaking suspicion that this would be avoided somehow or other.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10627322349797202893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-40776899333364454192012-09-07T01:02:52.443+01:002012-09-07T01:02:52.443+01:00But as I understand Welsh does not really differen...But as I understand Welsh does not really differentiate [l̥] and [ɬ]; [l̥] is just allophonic with [l]...<br /><br />BTW. it raises yet another interesting question, how is it with consonant clusters with mixed voicing, typically these are very hard to pronounce. But is it the same with voiceless approximants, nasals? Is it somehow less weird for language to distinguish, let's say, [vl] and [vl̥]?<br /><br />Jan RzymkowskiJRzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11740993989571675239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-28295566068670901432012-09-06T17:48:52.180+01:002012-09-06T17:48:52.180+01:00PS It's a matter of 'cavity friction' ...PS It's a matter of 'cavity friction' versus 'local friction'.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-43838449280149836502012-09-06T17:47:09.909+01:002012-09-06T17:47:09.909+01:00Welsh offers an example of the difference. Pla ...Welsh offers an example of the difference. <i>Pla</i> 'plague' has a voiceless lateral approximant [l̥], which is distinct from the well-known voiceless lateral fricative [ɬ] of <i>llaw</i> 'hand'. John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-20232526239029506232012-09-06T17:07:20.328+01:002012-09-06T17:07:20.328+01:00Presumably you mean the difference between a voice...Presumably you mean the difference between a voiceless <strong>l̥</strong> and <strong>ɬ</strong>. The former is supposed to be an approximant and the latter is a fricative. Although, I was under the (perhaps wrong) impression that voiceless approximants are inaudible.<br /><br />Jason ReidJason Reidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15399373762677357587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-27751737942333512842012-09-06T16:35:23.412+01:002012-09-06T16:35:23.412+01:00This is an excellent posting. I can produce all of...This is an excellent posting. I can produce all of those without effort; <b>n̥ɪʔn̥</b> was quite interesting. What though is the difference (if any) between <b>l̥</b> and <b>ɬ</b>? Michael Eversonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16882679137179765872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-64479163538776750682012-09-06T15:10:28.573+01:002012-09-06T15:10:28.573+01:00When you whisper those words, you still make the d...When you whisper those words, you still make the diphthong in "lice" relatively short and the final [s] strong and long, whereas in "lies" the diphthong is long and the final consonant is very weak and short, though voiceless. So by whispering them you still maintain all the differences between final [s] and [z] except that of "voice". <br />In any case, I understand that final [z] is usually voiceless, at least in its final phase (I forget the name of that phase).<br />I hope this is not much nonsense.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01762196203762970377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-44672902750473859102012-09-06T14:39:05.863+01:002012-09-06T14:39:05.863+01:00On thinking about this some more, I am getting con...On thinking about this some more, I am getting confused, because I'm pretty sure that even when whispering I can make the distinction between pairs which I thought differed only in voicing, e.g. <i>lice</i> and <i>lies</i>. What am I missing here? Thanks.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10627322349797202893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-57420619756129479902012-09-06T11:15:27.805+01:002012-09-06T11:15:27.805+01:00I should have known. Thank you, John.I should have known. Thank you, John.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01762196203762970377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-82687170760966642702012-09-06T11:05:12.613+01:002012-09-06T11:05:12.613+01:00Voicing, Place, Manner. In American universities b...Voicing, Place, Manner. In American universities basic introductory courses are typically numbered 101.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-76639893163848465832012-09-06T10:59:58.032+01:002012-09-06T10:59:58.032+01:00I've never found it difficult to switch voicin...I've never found it difficult to switch voicing. Unfortunately, I can't hear much of the voiceless consonants, as I have progressive hearing loss.Kilian Hekhuishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01084720179158650652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-6924147999522249972012-09-06T10:59:54.324+01:002012-09-06T10:59:54.324+01:00Sorry, I've been thinking about it all morning...Sorry, I've been thinking about it all morning -What does VPM 101 mean??? <br />Voice Primary Movement (Voice Punching Mechanism; Very Provocative Molestation) on-off-on?<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01762196203762970377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-1542654782194226172012-09-06T10:58:25.608+01:002012-09-06T10:58:25.608+01:00@Alan: Or, for that matter, a fully voiced d.@Alan: Or, for that matter, a fully voiced <b>d</b>.Kilian Hekhuishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01084720179158650652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-84720212566052385252012-09-06T09:02:03.311+01:002012-09-06T09:02:03.311+01:00Also re "as d is to ɾ, so t is to ɾ̥": t...Also re "as <b>d</b> is to <b>ɾ</b>, so <b>t</b> is to <b>ɾ̥</b>": true, but for English speakers, producing an unaspirated <b>[t]</b> is effort in itself. Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10627322349797202893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-28176183487547933852012-09-06T08:54:28.631+01:002012-09-06T08:54:28.631+01:00I tried your suggested ɑl̥ɑ, and at first it kept ...I tried your suggested <b>ɑl̥ɑ</b>, and at first it kept coming out as <b>ɑɬɑ</b>. With a fair bit of effort, I can now just about make the difference between these, but I wouldn't like to have to speak any language that contrasted them. By comparison, <b>ɑlɑ</b> versus <b>ɑɮɑ</b> seems a straightforward distinction to produce. It seems to be because of having to make the contrast at the same time as also switching the voicing off and on, as when whispering I have no trouble with <b>ɑ̥l̥ɑ̥</b> versus <b>ɑ̥ɬɑ̥</b>.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10627322349797202893noreply@blogger.com