tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post6448972757305327402..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: Russian illustratedJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-86420282117421813482016-09-08T14:55:30.510+01:002016-09-08T14:55:30.510+01:00flowers <a href="www.octaflowers.com" rel="nofollow">flowers</a>Arun kumarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01193415767192011845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-30282030615421079362016-09-08T14:54:19.009+01:002016-09-08T14:54:19.009+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Arun kumarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01193415767192011845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-85560821448961007232015-11-06T20:46:32.931+00:002015-11-06T20:46:32.931+00:00"The word солнтса ("sun")" - s..."The word солнтса ("sun")" - sun is солнце, silent 'н'.<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14463513729493395185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-84027993203975608572010-09-07T20:34:48.438+01:002010-09-07T20:34:48.438+01:00The level of Russian I have equals my knowledge in...The level of Russian I have equals my knowledge in Huttesse so I don't expect myself to actual understanding at no point what any of those pictures meanGeneric Cialishttp://www.learnsexualhealth.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-77233158541197856242010-02-09T13:25:14.599+00:002010-02-09T13:25:14.599+00:00Thanks, David. If anything there's more of a r...Thanks, David. If anything there's more of a rise on the та in Татьяна than in Шостакович. But Татьяна starts higher in isolation. I still wonder if it couldn’t be the other way round in context, with a lower or higher pitch before both of them. But I shouldn’t just have adopted MKR's Шостакович for the comparison. I should have thought of фотоаппарат again. (Goes back to sound file and finds you have corrected the advertiser's spelling. Such punctilio!) Even in isolation that is an example of the point I was trying to make.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-43958387248688805712010-02-09T02:32:48.138+00:002010-02-09T02:32:48.138+00:00mallamb
Татьяна & Шостаковичmallamb<br /><br /><a href="http://web.me.com/davidcrosbie/Site/Blog/Entries/2010/2/9_%D0%A2%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8C%D1%8F%D0%BD%D0%B0_%26_%D0%A8%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87.html" rel="nofollow">Татьяна & Шостакович</a>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-57155297553179279912010-02-08T15:03:48.421+00:002010-02-08T15:03:48.421+00:00wjarek
You know about менеджер and Lena doesn'...wjarek<br /><br />You know about <b>менеджер</b> and Lena doesn't know of a cognatе for <b>flash</b>. But the Russian for scanner is <b>сканер</b>. Other electronic words are <b>факс</b> and <b>лазер</b>.<br /><br />At least these spellings were in use when they were first used in popular writing such as advertising copy. You'd have to check whether they've been abolished by more recent editors.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-27957884001315090752010-02-08T13:17:58.595+00:002010-02-08T13:17:58.595+00:00Thanks David. Геккльбери and Ге are good!
Sure, i...Thanks David. Геккльбери and Ге are good!<br /><br />Sure, it's more about transliteration conventions than pronunciation. But the conventions do come from somewhere, don't they? The people who thought Hu should be rendered as Ге, etc., didn't select any old random letter.<br /><br />The reason I'm asking: In Polish, there are of course examples of both "graphemic" and "phonetic" borrowings, like in Russian; thus <i>menedżer</i> 'manager' and <i>flesz</i> 'flash lamp' vs. <i>skan</i> 'scan'. It's telling that you have both, because it shows the ambiguity of TRAP to non-English ears.<br /><br />The above invariably use "spelling pronunciations". In turn, <i>Flash</i> 'graphics technology' is of course written as in English, but varies between /a/ and /ɛ/. Interesting that the ambiguity persists only at the level of pronunciation.<br /><br />Since, it seems, Polish prefers "graphemic" borrowing from English these days, I thought Russian might be a good testing ground, because it's half a step further away graphically, and most of the time can't do with a total graphemic copy. If it sticks to <b>a</b> for the newer borrowings (i.e., if the <b>e/э</b> convention is weaker these days), it would lend some support to a point I want to make elsewhere ;)<br /><br />Off to the library. Electronically, of course ;)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13034958113049420062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-18499734311777145652010-02-08T09:44:18.435+00:002010-02-08T09:44:18.435+00:00Photographs from sterostopic negatives in the key ...Photographs from sterostopic negatives in the key stone-mast collection.They are presented by Californina museum of photography.ds r4http://www.r4card.com.au/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-11545162567626547402010-02-08T02:54:16.225+00:002010-02-08T02:54:16.225+00:00wjarek
And here's one spelling (there are oth...wjarek<br /><br />And here's one spelling (there are others) of a word that didn't exist last week — at least not officially.<br /><br /><a href="http://web.me.com/davidcrosbie/Site/Blog/Entries/2010/2/8_Brand_new_word.html" rel="nofollow">Brand new word</a>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-5817553628046422512010-02-08T02:37:29.953+00:002010-02-08T02:37:29.953+00:00wjarek
For a recent example of a transliterated a...wjarek<br /><br />For a recent example of <b>a</b> transliterated as <b>a</b>, look no further than <i><b>Гарри Поттер</b></i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-8968769740421452112010-02-08T01:52:01.232+00:002010-02-08T01:52:01.232+00:00MKR
Nobody said anything about pronouncing the En...MKR<br /><br />Nobody said anything about <i>pronouncing</i> the English vowel. Russians transliterated from script to script according to conventions operating at the time. The joke in the <b>Huxleys</b> example is that the conventions changed.<br /><br />Readers then use a spelling pronunciation, which makes the joke at least a wee bit amusing in oral retelling<br /><br />In fact the reality is not quite so silly as the joke as I heard it. You can see that the editors of the <b>Энциклопедическия Словарь</b> were in fact aware of the anomaly.<br /><br />I've also included the entry for Mark Twain to show another use of <b>Ге</b> to transliterate <b>Hu</b>. <br /><br />Now visit <a href="http://web.me.com/davidcrosbie/Site/Blog/Entries/2010/2/8_Huxleys_%26_Huck_Finn.html" rel="nofollow">Huxleys & Huck Finn</a>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-59985080580137587802010-02-07T23:14:41.968+00:002010-02-07T23:14:41.968+00:00Thanks, MKR. I was actually thinking more of commo...Thanks, MKR. I was actually thinking more of common words, along the lines of менеджер or истэблишмент vs. сканирование and компакт-диск. I'll do some searching tomorrow; a quick peek hasn't revealed any recent sources...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13034958113049420062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-86173008006638348802010-02-07T21:44:24.794+00:002010-02-07T21:44:24.794+00:00DC: "No, it was Гексли not Гёксли." --So...DC: "No, it was Гексли not Гёксли." --So they were pronouncing the name as [geksli]! How bizarre! (I assume that they would pronounce "e" as "э," as is usually done with foreign names in Russian.) Here is a speculative explanation: The first Russians to translate or write about T. H. Huxley took the STRUT and TRAP vowels of English to be identical; they had a convention of using "e" to represent TRAP; so they used it for the vowel in the first syllable of "Huxley." But I don't know of any examples in which Russians use "e" (or "э") for TRAP.<br /><br />Wjarek, I looked up the Russian transliterations of some names of US states with TRAP -- Kansas, Alabama, California, Nebraska -- in Google Translate, and they all came up with "a" (Канзас, etc.).Miles Rindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03733605717776262840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-76878449784152055362010-02-07T20:32:26.549+00:002010-02-07T20:32:26.549+00:00MKR
No, it was Гексли not Гёксли.MKR<br /><br />No, it was <b>Гексли</b> not <b>Гёксли</b>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-20234803844423204992010-02-07T20:06:40.869+00:002010-02-07T20:06:40.869+00:00And I answered to mallamb, in case somebody's ...And I answered to mallamb, in case somebody's agonising.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-75899255262208240932010-02-07T20:01:55.907+00:002010-02-07T20:01:55.907+00:00I meant, of course, u for STRUT and a for TRAP.I meant, of course, <b>u</b> for STRUT and <b>a</b> for TRAP.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13034958113049420062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-27794525893285811002010-02-07T20:01:15.627+00:002010-02-07T20:01:15.627+00:00No difference, I'd say, but as always, it woul...No difference, I'd say, but as always, it would be best to listen to a naive native spaeaker.<br /><br />The intonation in <i>Москва</i> isn't unlike <i>aaaand cut</i>, depending on the type of English, the vowels can be the same, too.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-19378397959290808052010-02-07T19:58:05.336+00:002010-02-07T19:58:05.336+00:00mallamb: "And did v Gogh call his hélianthes?...mallamb: <i>"And did v Gogh call his hélianthes?" was a rhetorical question!</i><br /><br />Oops. So obvious. I was in my hyper-literal-no-subtext mode.<br /><br />MKR: Now I think of it, the Хаксли-Гексли thing is striking. Any other examples along similar lines? Or English <b>u</b> transliterated as a simple <b>o</b>, not <b>ë</b>? Or, for that matter, <b>a</b> transliterated as <b>a</b> vs. <b>e</b> (or <b>э</b>)? If anybody can point me to examples or published sources, they'll be getting a thank-you note in a forthcoming paper...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13034958113049420062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-59066045594806590092010-02-07T19:01:07.601+00:002010-02-07T19:01:07.601+00:00Wjarek,
I think we are less off-topic than usual! ...Wjarek,<br />I think we are less off-topic than usual! John is more or less giving us as well as himself carte blanche here.<br /><br />> Van Gogh of course called it Tournesols, not Hélianthes.<br /><br />That was, like, my point. "And did v Gogh call his hélianthes?" was a rhetorical question!<br /><br />MKR,<br /><i>Russians think I am crazy when I report this impression to them, but I think that they are raising the pitch (though not the loudness) of the pretonic vowel above that of the preceding and following syllables</i><br /><br />That is exactly what I thought, and have no difficulty in perceiving, because it is so like Japanese.<br /><br />lipman,<br />> Yes, higher (and rising) pitch and lengthened.<br /><br />Your polyglottism always seems to be so much more of a real live phenomenon than mine that I might as well ask you rather than run the gauntlet of letting Lena in for some more recordings: of MKR's examples "Татьяна" and "Шостакович", would I be right in thinking the rising pitch would be in Татьяна rather than Шостакович?mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-36102684003984460892010-02-07T17:35:39.099+00:002010-02-07T17:35:39.099+00:00Yes, higher (and rising) pitch and lengthened. I n...Yes, higher (and rising) pitch and lengthened. I never thought of it, but I see how that might be perceived as the word accent.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-14244120998483049562010-02-07T17:21:31.598+00:002010-02-07T17:21:31.598+00:00Stephen: I've seen it [viz., pretonic "a&...Stephen: <i>I've seen it [viz., pretonic "a" or "o"] represented it either by [ʌ] or [ɐ] (the latter is perhaps better?). I agree that it is probably more open than what ʌ usually represents. In singing I think would be usual to pronounce it the same as stressed /a/.</i><br /><br />How delightful, and how rare, to hear something that confirms my understanding of a difficult point in Russian phonetics instead of overthrowing or complicating it!<br /><br />Of course, as an American, I have to remind myself not to assume that [ʌ] represents the vowel that I have in STRUT words, especially when the author of the notation is English! My STRUT vowel is probably what Dennis Ward was representing as [ə], while [ʌ] represents a vowel not in my accent.<br /><br />David Crosbie: Thanks for the account. Your wife's observation that "the distinction [between fully unstressed and pretonic vowels represented by letter "a" or "o"] is less important in Petersburg speech than Moscow speech" confirms what I had drawn from Nabokov's statement. That she finds Nabokov's Russian speech "posh and plummy and not at all natural — more like an actor on stage than a real speaker" is unsurprising, given his prose style.<br /><br /><i>Your mention of <b>a</b> as a transliteration of English <b>u</b> reminds me of the wonderful entry in a Soviet Literary Encyclopaedia on Aldous <b>Хаксли</b> with mention of his ancestor Thomas <b>Гексли</b></i><br /><br />That gave me some trouble, till I inferred that "e" there must be "ë." I suppose the conventions of transliteration were very different in the 1860s from what they were in the 20th century!<br /><br />Lipman: <i>MKR, far's I know that lenghtened pretonic a (spelt a or o) is still somewhat typical of Moscow.</i><br /><br />I haven't noticed its being lengthened, but certainly the quality is brought close to that of stressed [a]. To me it often sounds as if the speakers (I don't know if all the ones in whose speech I have observed this are Muscovites or not) are giving greater stress to the pretonic than to the tonic syllable! E.g., their pronunciation of "Татьяна" or "Шостакович" will sound to me as if stressed on the antepenultimate rather than the penultimate syllable. Russians think I am crazy when I report this impression to them, but I think that they are raising the <i>pitch</i> (though not the loudness) of the pretonic vowel above that of the preceding and following syllables, which to my Anglophone ear gives the impression of primary stress.Miles Rindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03733605717776262840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-90013463288718161042010-02-07T17:06:00.233+00:002010-02-07T17:06:00.233+00:00wjarek
Don't worry, I wasn't taking it pe...wjarek<br /><br />Don't worry, I wasn't taking it personally!<br /><br />It might be interesting to see how many of your references could be translated as <i>a sunflower</i> — the meaning of the text here — and how many mean <i>the sunflower</i> where <i>the</i> is used for generic reference.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-25849309712874170762010-02-07T16:37:08.379+00:002010-02-07T16:37:08.379+00:00mallamb
I just copied the spelling of the people ...mallamb<br /><br />I just copied the spelling of the people trying to sell that camera!David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-29826197759137974762010-02-07T15:48:32.920+00:002010-02-07T15:48:32.920+00:00This has become as off-topic as it gets ;)
(1) Da...This has become as off-topic as it gets ;)<br /><br />(1) David -- I should've pointed out more explicitly that I got interested and was just asking a question and doing some simple research using the remnants of my Russian. Really, no undermining whatsoever on my part.<br /><br />(2) Sorry, I hadn't seen the reference to the botanical usage, my bad.<br /><br />(3) My point was merely that подсолнечник does live on.<br /><br />(4) More sunflower-stirring indeed shows that <a href="http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&source=hp&q=%22%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B5+%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%22&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=%22%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B5+%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%22&fp=c3c74e19c723def9" rel="nofollow">поле подсолнечников</a> indeed loses out to <a href="http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&q=%22%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B5+%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BD%D1%83%D1%85%D0%BE%D0%B2%22&meta=&aq=f&oq=%22%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B5+%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BD%D1%83%D1%85%D0%BE%D0%B2%22&fp=c3c74e19c723def9" rel="nofollow">поле подсолнухов</a> by a factor of about 1:28 on Google. However, the former still gets hits such as <a href="http://rest-portal.ru/photo/3369" rel="nofollow">this</a> or <a href="http://prirodnie.ru/displayimage.php?album=9&pos=14" rel="nofollow">this</a>. If people do tag their photos in that way, the term can't be all that learned. "Field of helianthuses", which would have to be the English equivalent (would it?), only gets 3 (!) hits on Google. None tag a photo. Again, no ugly intentions here, I'm just doing corpus research out of innocent curiosity ;)<br /><br />(5) Many of those hits for поле подсолнечников are indeed from southern Russia (e.g. Krasnodar) or Ukraine. So it seems it's still persists in Russian as spoken in those parts. (And I do realise it's just the Internet. But that's how you research living usage these days, isn't it?)<br /><br />(6) mallamb: Van Gogh of course called it <i>Tournesols</i>, not <i>Hélianthes</i>.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13034958113049420062noreply@blogger.com