tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post7989870804585829060..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: our new multiethnolectJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-27363355252933956562020-03-07T10:02:47.378+00:002020-03-07T10:02:47.378+00:00https://blackmartapkfasak.webs.com/
https://apkfas...<br /><br /><br /><a href="https://blackmartapkfasak.webs.com/" rel="nofollow">https://blackmartapkfasak.webs.com/</a><br /><a href="https://apkfasak.livejournal.com/258.html" rel="nofollow">https://apkfasak.livejournal.com/258.html</a><br /><a href="https://www.diigo.com/item/note/71xok/ens1?k=1faad59ec1f0b022fc720e7f406c5d3e" rel="nofollow">https://www.diigo.com/item/note/71xok/ens1?k=1faad59ec1f0b022fc720e7f406c5d3e</a><br /><br /><br />ac markethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01053979656944648575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-39264080306650391402011-03-24T23:42:17.947+00:002011-03-24T23:42:17.947+00:00@ Mary: That's interesting. Thank you for tha...@ Mary: That's interesting. Thank you for that! My uncle seems to have the London pronunciations for TRAP and STRUT but the Essex one for COMMA/LETTER.Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04081841460525341333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-33454581102809274892011-03-24T23:22:15.381+00:002011-03-24T23:22:15.381+00:00L vocalization may once have been "distinctiv...<i>L vocalization may once have been "distinctively Cockney", but it seems to me to have become near-universal in England.</i><br /><br />A few years ago, there was a paper in (remarkably) Nature which investigated how the Queen's pronunciation had changed over the decades. It had; the royal preconsonantal /l/ is reliably a syllable nowadays (not a vowel, but nonetheless syllabic), and the paper called this a feature of general "Southern British" English.<br /><br />ENG-GL-LAND! ENG-GL-LAND! ENG-GL-LAND! ENG-GL-LAND! ...David Marjanovićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-42785990783027875872011-03-24T19:27:14.337+00:002011-03-24T19:27:14.337+00:00Ed - the main differences I would note in an actor...Ed - the main differences I would note in an actor from Essex playing a londoner, as I had to last year for a play set in Deptford, is to use [æ] rather than [a] for the TRAP vowel, and for final neutral COMMA/LETTER to be fronted. STRUT also tends more to be realised as [ə] in my Essex students, rather than a more open sound for London - well, the london of the previous generation, anyway. There are some rhythmical and melodic differences as well. Contrast genuine East Enders like Patsy Palmer or Cheryl Baker with the orange people on 'The Only Way is Essex'<br />I would also say that the spotlight form does give more specific Northern English descriptors - Manchester, Yorkshire, Durham - well the counties, anyway. Though the bit I never understand is that it doesn't have Estuary as an option, nor MLE, nor Merseyside (as distinct from Liverpool), but you can select whether your native accent (or one in which you are performably proficient) is Jersey OR Guernsey.maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12280199499659410185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-29363088723533523942011-03-24T10:45:08.485+00:002011-03-24T10:45:08.485+00:00@ Mary: Can you please tell me what difference is ...@ Mary: Can you please tell me what difference is listed between London and Essex? My uncle has always lived on the border of the two. I've never been able to tell any difference in pronunciations, although you don't get any rhyming slang in Essex.<br /><br />It seems strange to distinguish between London and Essex and then group half the country as "Northern".Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04081841460525341333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-33234217115538973262011-03-24T07:36:05.332+00:002011-03-24T07:36:05.332+00:00L-vocalization is alive and well here in New Zeala...L-vocalization is alive and well here in New Zealand.plutomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14579734075621183567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-89692937687902077902011-03-24T00:32:59.732+00:002011-03-24T00:32:59.732+00:00@Ed:
Thanks so much for the links.
I will revise...@Ed:<br /><br />Thanks so much for the links.<br /><br />I will revise my thesis to say that L-vocalization is endemic to Southern England.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-76738495670027318842011-03-23T23:30:13.068+00:002011-03-23T23:30:13.068+00:00John Cowan - I am assuming that you didn't see...John Cowan - I am assuming that you didn't see the RSC's Hamlet from the other year - the main characters being played by an Australian, a West Coast Scot and a Yorkshireman, all using RP.<br /><br />I am also assuming that you never saw any of the productions at the Globe in which they used what is termed OP (Original Pronunciation). David Crystal wrote a great book about the research process and how it informed the performances of the plays. I saw the Troilus and Cressida, and after the first five minutes of tuning in to the unfamiliar patterns, enjoyed the play immensely. As did the large party of Spanish school children standing in front of memaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12280199499659410185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-77975139078747762762011-03-23T23:23:53.771+00:002011-03-23T23:23:53.771+00:00Is it too late here to point out that Mr Rascal is...Is it too late here to point out that Mr Rascal is from a Ghanaian family, so Jafaican is really not an appropriate term for his accent? Not that anyone here has, as we are all au fait with the concept of MLE.<br /><br />As a dialect coach - well accent coach, really: dialect coach is the preferred term in the States: as far as I can see the 'dialect' should be in the script - the area of RP is a minefield. Actors have a professional directory called 'Spotlight', which is divided in to about ten volumes, each one bigger than the Greater London phonebook, which has an online presence. Actors graduating from drama school have to fill in a tickbox form, giving playing age, specialist skills, singing range, and then my favourite, 'accents'. Among the four or so pages of options, RP is listed, as is London AND Cockney, Essex, Kent, but not Estuary, nor MLE. There is a great one: 'Northern', but no corresponding 'Southern', though there used to be till about eight years ago.<br />So if they were filling in a spotlight form, Tamsin Greig, Judi Dench, Richard Dimbleby, Lord Onslow, Diana Mitford and the Queen would all go under 'RP', in the absence of any other distinction.<br />Professor Wells' 'Accents of English' goes into fantastic detail on the nature of the different forms of RP, which I am trying to adhere to when describing sounds to my non-accent colleagues, but everything that doesn't sound contemporary is termed 'Heightened RP' by most of them.maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12280199499659410185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-88376723285657698782011-03-23T22:28:56.284+00:002011-03-23T22:28:56.284+00:00Sadly I can't think of anyone famous with a Po...Sadly I can't think of anyone famous with a Potteries accent to compare with Me and Mar Lady. Robbie Williams is from Stoke, but he doesn't have much of the local accent.Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04081841460525341333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-77622352344534341232011-03-23T22:01:48.328+00:002011-03-23T22:01:48.328+00:00There are some modern Yorkshire examples. Geoffre...There are some modern Yorkshire examples. Geoffrey Boycott says the word "ball" several times at 0:42 <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDtBe6LunZ4" rel="nofollow">here</a> and says the L each time. Mick McCarthy says "normal" three times at 0:44 <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0O_qkvR5qc" rel="nofollow">here</a>Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04081841460525341333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-17705296261890304882011-03-23T20:55:34.042+00:002011-03-23T20:55:34.042+00:00@ vp: I meant that L-vocalisation in certain words...@ vp: I meant that L-vocalisation in certain words was part of certain traditional dialects but this feature has since disappeared. The <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-vocalization#English" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia article for L-vocalisation</a> quotes Petyt's observation that this process has been reversed in West Yorkshire (that was in 1985). The spelling "owd" for "old" is used in dialect writing such as the Me and Mar Lady series (Potteries dialect). See <a href="http://www.thepotteries.org/dialect.html#piggott" rel="nofollow">here</a>.Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04081841460525341333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-62651685758292347922011-03-23T20:47:40.505+00:002011-03-23T20:47:40.505+00:00I wrote a long reply that didn't post successf...I wrote a long reply that didn't post successfully. I'll break it up.<br /><br />@ Pete: the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicultural_London_English#Phonetics" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia article</a> gives /aɪ/ for MLE. It mentions monophthongisation for PRICE as well, which I overlooked before and would not be RP.Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04081841460525341333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-11644870249945514462011-03-23T19:42:28.741+00:002011-03-23T19:42:28.741+00:00That was one of the problems, if you want to call ...That was one of the problems, if you want to call it a problem, of the series - it's not very likely that Edwardian aristocrats talked like BBC announcers.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-34464585370992273402011-03-23T19:31:45.097+00:002011-03-23T19:31:45.097+00:00Which reminds me: what sort of books, for example,...Which reminds me: what sort of books, for example, would the dialogue coaches have to consult to get everything right for the <i>Downton</i> period if a dilemma pops up? Say, <i>Broadcast English</i> from 1929: http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/.a/6a00d8341c464853ef0147e0a21ca8970b-pi ?<br /><br />In the book's notation does <i>gréesy, gréesy</i> mean <b>ɡriːsi, griːzi</b> or <b>grɪəsi, grɪəzi</b>? <i>Geyser</i> would be <b>ɡiːzə</b>, <i>finance</i> is <b>fɪˈnæns</b>?Marynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-24970856095019236092011-03-23T18:27:50.363+00:002011-03-23T18:27:50.363+00:00@Lipman: See, this is very interesting: I've a...@Lipman: See, this is very interesting: I've actually never heard it defined in such a way – lower range of a high-pitched voice – but looking closely, it does make sense. As for <i>Downton Abbey</i>, yes, precisely, it wasn't really quite there in terms of the accent of the period. Even Professor Wells mentioned how mythological names ending in <i>-eus</i> weren't pronounced correctly: <b>ˈθiːsjuːs, pɜːsjuːs, zjuːs</b>. I don't think they had a dialogue coach, which is a shame.<br /><br />@John Cowan: Yes, this is precisely why I mentioned Keeley Hawes. She had 10 years of elocution lessons, practised for hours to pronounce <i>the perfect 'o'</i>, and I can clearly see it. One of the methods when they teach you elocution is to make you overpronounce, exaggerate the sounds.Marynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-10041932696110739632011-03-23T17:22:48.946+00:002011-03-23T17:22:48.946+00:00John C.,
I think many playgoers would find it irr...John C.,<br /><br />I think many playgoers would find it irritating or funny if in a classical setting, an actor had a local accent that isn't justified by the play. This might be different if the whole cast shares the accent, but some people find an American production of a Shakespeare play strange already.<br /><br />That doesn't mean the accents of the play or the setting have to be the historical ones. In Downton Abbey, for example, filmed last year and playing on the eve of the First World War, the accents were an approximation of the 1960s, and I don't think this bothered anyone.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-32169891733913892542011-03-23T17:09:46.841+00:002011-03-23T17:09:46.841+00:00Mary,
I've heard that stereotype a couple of ...Mary,<br /><br />I've heard that stereotype a couple of times, no idea if it's true statistically, and if so, whether this is a matter of genetics (hard to believe, but possible in theory) or of habit, using the lower registers of one's voice, howeer high the latter is. Of course, there's the contradicting stereotype of the overbred young aristocrat' high-voiced plapper.<br /><br />The current Chancellor does creak, and this may be associated with a type of U-RP, but not only have I heard much worse but I hear it as a (typical) creak at the lower end. At least a creaky voice, as a nasal twang, isn't connected to how high the voice is, I'd say.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-58408580278425134262011-03-23T17:08:11.558+00:002011-03-23T17:08:11.558+00:00(oops)
Pete: Why are you surprised? New accents ...(oops)<br /><br />Pete: Why are you surprised? New accents appear, as in the Antipodes, where people speaking different accents mingle. London today is eminently such a place.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-55184732160227580162011-03-23T17:05:47.930+00:002011-03-23T17:05:47.930+00:00John: Out of curiosity, which two did you spot, an...John: Out of curiosity, which two did you spot, and was it by specific features or by gestalt? <br /><br />Mary: This whole business of period-appropriate accents in the theatre strikes me as broken. Nobody performs Shakespeare in period accents (nor should they) and what Shaw thought of RP is amply on record. Unless an accent <i>contrast</i> is required to mark a character as culturally different from the rest, I'd far rather see actors performing in their native accents rather than in artificially assumed ones. I'm speaking as someone who for more than twenty years saw at least one play a week for pleasure.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-85094833750948883192011-03-23T16:50:04.313+00:002011-03-23T16:50:04.313+00:00@Mary: That's great to hear, yet I still have ...@Mary: That's great to hear, yet I still have the impression it's less there than it should be. For example, I find Ed Stoppard's accent and voice in last years <i>Upstairs, Downstairs</i> absolutely shameful and annoying. Keeley Hawes was, on the other hand, overdoing it – her mouth were so wide during the whole thing, she could've swallowed a whale. The butler wasn't quite there either.<br /><br />Could you tell me what is the difference between what you call <i>marked RP</i> and <i>upper RP</i>?<br /><br />@Lipman: URP people have lower voices? Really? I always felt it was a sound a cat would emit if the were being stepped on or de-skinned. Just look at the current Chancellor – although that Harley Street voice specialist whose name I'm forgetting managed to tone it down, it's still annoyingly screechy.Marynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-14193161738851192052011-03-23T15:57:20.868+00:002011-03-23T15:57:20.868+00:00@Ed: The MLE value of the FACE vowel /ɛɪ/ is indee...@Ed: The MLE value of the FACE vowel <b>/ɛɪ/</b> is indeed in the direction of RP <b>/ɛɪ/</b> (from Cockney <b>/ʌi/</b>).<br /><br />But the PRICE vowel <b>/æe/</b> is surely a move <i>away</i> from RP <b>/aɪ/</b> (from Cockney <b>/ɑe/</b>).Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13722482936100504510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-30300378434582750262011-03-23T14:53:59.387+00:002011-03-23T14:53:59.387+00:00@Ed:
That's interesting.
Do you have any sugg...@Ed:<br /><br />That's interesting.<br />Do you have any suggestions for audio/video links or particular speakers with the restored /l/s? Cheers.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-42907681928457753422011-03-23T14:48:42.153+00:002011-03-23T14:48:42.153+00:00There are RP accents with hardly a diphthong for F...There are RP accents with hardly a diphthong for FACE, with a bandwidth for the resulting monophthong from <b>eː</b> to <b>ɛː</b>, and "U"-RP speakers tend to have a lower voice, but both are coincidences, of course.<br /><br />(EDIT: word verification is "squica" - so much for low voices.)Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-71763108054220961922011-03-23T14:35:48.672+00:002011-03-23T14:35:48.672+00:00@ vp: I disagree completely on the L-vocalisation....@ vp: I disagree completely on the L-vocalisation. L-vocalisation has reversed in some non-southern parts of England. It used to be common in words such as "cold", "old", etc. in Yorks, Lancs, the Midlands but the L has been restored there. I understand that the L used to be dropped entirely on -ool words in the north-west. Historic L has gained rather than lost ground in a large part of England.<br /><br />I read the Wikipedia article for Multicultural London English. Many of these changes are in the direction of RP (the entries for PRICE, FOOT, FACE) or in line with nationwide trends (for TRAP, h-restoration). The only ones I noted in the article that are clearly non-Cockney and non-RP are the use of [q] for /k/, and the use of [e:] and [o:] in FACE and GOAT. However, I can't say that I've ever met a White Londoner who uses these pronunciations. Perhaps I'm just in with the wrong crowd. I think that "Jafaican" is more evident with words than with pronunciations.<br /><br />On the subject of identifying voices with ethnicity, a lot of people think that a very low voice must be Black. There have been two occasions when someone who's spoken to me on the phone has told me that they presumed I must be Black from how low my voice is. (I'm actually White)Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04081841460525341333noreply@blogger.com