tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post8032685089982530858..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: Ruyton how many?John Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-73920090999352278722020-06-03T15:19:07.526+01:002020-06-03T15:19:07.526+01:00Great looking web site . We at PROPERTY HUNTERS. I...Great looking web site . We at PROPERTY HUNTERS. 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Buy by Installment plan</a><br />property hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03778165471236903616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-70592861928605726672012-07-10T15:32:40.202+01:002012-07-10T15:32:40.202+01:00Happy to go along with that - but still no Welsh i...Happy to go along with that - but still no Welsh in the names at all.Hugh Jordan www.culturetrails.co.ukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06716745881130639279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-19634598774951281562012-07-09T20:24:39.745+01:002012-07-09T20:24:39.745+01:00Victor Watts, in his Cambridge Dictionary of Engli...Victor Watts, in his <em>Cambridge Dictionary of English Place-Names</em> (2004), plumps for OE <em>(ge)mǣre</em> 'boundary' as the origin of the first element in these names.Steve Doerrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18210787261745134371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-9717556473377777792012-07-09T10:11:08.922+01:002012-07-09T10:11:08.922+01:00I believe Maesbrook and Maesbury are Cymricisation...I believe Maesbrook and Maesbury are Cymricisations of the English Marshbrook and Marshbury respectivelyHugh Jordan www.culturetrails.co.ukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06716745881130639279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-73252234613263013822010-10-18T14:54:38.606+01:002010-10-18T14:54:38.606+01:00As an English resident of Ruyton-xi-Towns, I can t...As an English resident of Ruyton-xi-Towns, I can tell you that we tend to pronounce the more Welsh sounding places with a distinctly English inflection. the 'Ll' in Llynclys has less of the phlegmy qualities that Welsh speakers would use. The prevailing accent in Shropshire, especially in the west has heavy Welsh overtones in it anyway and you don't have to spend too long in places like Oswestry before you hear someone speaking Welsh. I think here, more than anywhere else along the English/Welsh border is the language and accent barrier the most porous.W. Jonesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-6288407643375426852010-01-18T00:58:08.765+00:002010-01-18T00:58:08.765+00:00"I've often wondered whether Yahoo! is pr..."I've often wondered whether Yahoo! is pronounced with a click or just with the Mandarin fourth tone on the second syllable."<br /><br />"The Economist" audio edition's readers stress the first syllable, which interprets the word as an insulting noun rather than a celebratory interjection.mollymoolynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-49397560051416235752010-01-18T00:08:19.877+00:002010-01-18T00:08:19.877+00:00It won't let me do cut and paste anything for ...It won't let me do cut and paste anything for some reason.'enry 'igginshttp://hownowbrowncow.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-1478547480785078792010-01-17T20:39:38.433+00:002010-01-17T20:39:38.433+00:00[ɘ] exists in some Englishes. It is the HAPPEH vow...[ɘ] exists in some Englishes. It is the HAPPEH vowel.<br /><br />It's also the most common realization of the Polish <i>y</i> according to my (geographically biassed?) experience.David Marjanovićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-33552056477426952812010-01-16T23:13:18.606+00:002010-01-16T23:13:18.606+00:00Isn't it a pity that Westward Ho! in Devon and...<i>Isn't it a pity that Westward Ho! in Devon and Saint-Louis-du-Ha! Ha! in Quebec aren't pronounced with clicks?</i><br /><br />I've often wondered whether Yahoo! is pronounced with a click or just with the Mandarin fourth tone on the second syllable.David Marjanovićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-84369163648579682122010-01-16T20:41:41.303+00:002010-01-16T20:41:41.303+00:00Zhoroscop (Cristian Bodor): we do not want your re...Zhoroscop (Cristian Bodor): we do not want your respellings. Please desist. This blog uses IPA.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-37654076777728367492010-01-16T15:06:32.748+00:002010-01-16T15:06:32.748+00:00A friend from nearby Llanymynech has now told me t...A friend from nearby Llanymynech has now told me that Maesbrook is <b>ˈmeɪsbrʊk</b>.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-34462822837376927882010-01-16T00:03:14.471+00:002010-01-16T00:03:14.471+00:00@ Peter Roach:
I'm sure you're right abou...@ Peter Roach:<br /><br />I'm sure you're right about there being Welsh influence in Shrewsbury, but doesn't the local accent tend towards Brummie these days? I had a gym teacher from Shrewsbury and he sounded almost like someone from Birmingham to me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-41125823330996057712010-01-15T21:27:22.961+00:002010-01-15T21:27:22.961+00:00Raitân Ilèvân TaunzRaitân Ilèvân TaunzAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-2976024812428834362010-01-15T20:45:41.186+00:002010-01-15T20:45:41.186+00:00Those are hilarious names for towns. I hadn't...Those are hilarious names for towns. I hadn't heard of them until you mentioned them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-55202714275419313402010-01-15T17:52:16.691+00:002010-01-15T17:52:16.691+00:00Isn't it a pity that Westward Ho! in Devon and...Isn't it a pity that Westward Ho! in Devon and Saint-Louis-du-Ha! Ha! in Quebec aren't pronounced with clicks?John Maidmenthttp://blogjam.name/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-23300090022540383552010-01-15T17:50:30.246+00:002010-01-15T17:50:30.246+00:00The Welsh influence in Shrewsbury, where I grew up...The Welsh influence in Shrewsbury, where I grew up, is still very strong. It was once the capital of Wales (though now about 12 miles inside England). Many of my friends at school had Welsh as their first or second language, and in the days when the cattle market was held in the town, the streets were filled with Welsh speakers on market day. Local Welsh-derived place-names tend, not surprisingly, to be pronounced in a more or less Welsh way according to how close the speaker's connection with Wales and the Welsh language is.<br />I remember using a very primitive database of English place names years ago and wondering where a place called Xi could be, until I remembered Ruyton.Peter Roachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12804550116354318809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-91491258205698890692010-01-15T16:32:28.040+00:002010-01-15T16:32:28.040+00:00"Maesbrook" is "Maesbrog" in W..."Maesbrook" is "Maesbrog" in Welsh. It's still not clear which language is mangling the other -- does it mean frog-field, or does it mean the brook near Maesbury (which is Llysfeisir in Welsh*)? I'm trying to recall how the ae/â/ê split happens in the North-East -- it won't go to "â" up there, but if it does go to "ê", then it becomes very hard to spot anglicization.<br /><br />The other thing to note is that the part of Wales between Oswestry and the Berwyn mountains (and therefore relatively cut-off from the rest of Wales**) is over 50% Welsh-speaking (<a href="http://www.ynyfro.com/index.html" rel="nofollow">map here</a>). The language question isn't asked in the English census, but note that the only places where there's an consistent immediate drop from >50% to <20% are the City of Swansea and the rather extreme natural border of Ceredigion and Radnorshire (the road from Cwmystwyth to Rhaeadr is a once-in-a-lifetime experience!). I would therefore hypothesize that the reason why there isn't much information on how Welsh placenames get anglicized in this part of Shropshire is because they tend not to.<br /><br />* (Indeed, most of the English placenames in that corner of Shropshire have Welsh equivalents. The most conspicuous ones are Croesoswallt (Oswestry), Y Dre-wen (Whittington), and Llanfarthin (St Martin's). So on a map in Welsh, the it-looks-like-Wales effect is total.)<br /><br />** (It would be very easy to be an historical bore on this one. Suffice it to say that the border here was created by the 1536 Laws in Wales Act, which seems to have deliberately created anomalous borders in areas that were strongly connected to Owain Glyndŵr (this one's Powys Fadog, through which the legitimacy of his claim came). I don't own the English-language version of John Davies' "Hanes Cymru", but he says in Welsh (p.222): "tu draw iddi yr oedd ardaloedd megis Croesoswallt ac Ewias a fyddai am ganrifoedd yn parhau'n dra Chymraeg, ardaloedd nad yw'n gwbl ffansïol eu hystyried fel Cambria irredenta".)James Dowdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11058389162481491681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-45651237542843920732010-01-15T13:45:42.967+00:002010-01-15T13:45:42.967+00:00Jack Windsor Lewis says:
With regard to John’s rem...Jack Windsor Lewis says:<br />With regard to John’s remark “There are also mixtures of Welsh and English such as Maesbrook (Welsh maes = field)” he rather seems to be jumping to a conclusion. It may well be that he’s encouraged by hearing a Welsh-speaking person pronouncing this Shropshire Welsh- <br />Marches name as /`maɪsbrʊk/ but, if so, that’s not safe evidence for his conclusion. I’ve heard a Welsh-speaking person pronounce the <br />Berkshire placename Twyford as /`tuːifəd/ but that doesnt make it a Welsh-language name.<br />There’s no dou’t about it that the linguistic border between Wales and England is very diff’rent from the political border. And it’s <br />never been anything like fixed. In my article (available on my website) on The Roots of Cardiff English I refer to the ebb and flow <br />demonstrated by some of the Vale-of-Glamorgan placenames such as Brynhill Fach and Penhill Fawr, which show three tiers of occupation, <br />and Welsh St Donats, Hampston Fach, Rhiw Saeson, Broadland Fawr, Michaelston-y-fedw and Monkton Ganol which point to Welsh reoccupation of medieval English settlements. Anyway, Eilert Ekwall in his Oxford Dictionary of English Place-Names quotes records of forms of Maesbrook from the Domesday book onwards <br />that show it, like Marlborough, to have undergone dissimilative loss of its first /r/ and to contain in its first syllable a reflex of an Old English word for ‘boundary’. I don’t know how people there pronounce it but I guess it might be /`meɪzbrʊk/.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.com