tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post826568852747876567..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: low level or low fall?John Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-62942085299652771332011-10-14T14:56:22.341+01:002011-10-14T14:56:22.341+01:00It is clearly a fall rise, yes - Oh \/Lord|...
Se...It is clearly a fall rise, yes - Oh \/Lord|...<br /><br />Sentiment can make us tremble.Beatrice Portinarihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13626472955669713053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-16665071250070230812011-10-14T05:50:28.307+01:002011-10-14T05:50:28.307+01:00My mother tongue is Spanish. I can perceive the mo...My mother tongue is Spanish. I can perceive the monotones that have been discussed here, but I’m afraid I can hear a fall rise in “Lord” in the first IP of the utterance (0:22). In the second IP, the monotones are clear to me.<br />Can anybody else perceive the same? Can a native speaker clarify this for me, please? Thanks!María Lafayettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00922248774559521884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-12448104151939259072011-10-13T04:01:08.753+01:002011-10-13T04:01:08.753+01:00Whether the second “Silly old fool” from the recor...Whether the second “Silly old fool” from the recording is heard as a low level or low fall depends on context: <br /><br />as part of a tail, such as "He's done it a\_gain_, the silly old fool."<br /><br />it is low level and as a standalone utterance, it is a low fall.Jacob Chuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08559476383817528974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-9605354940886672162011-10-13T00:33:11.901+01:002011-10-13T00:33:11.901+01:00It could be that I just need to train my ears. Int...It could be that I just need to train my ears. Intonation is one of my weak points in linguistics. Even the way the woman said, "Are you ready to answer?" near the end of the second clip didn't sound so strange, but it should to a native speaker, right? Maybe my brain is sort of taking the wrong intonation and putting the right intonation in its place when I listen to it. I can't think of a better way to phrase that at the moment unfortunately. I'm clearly out of my depth here.yuriivehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03558374848664262968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-86186020748772661432011-10-12T22:53:06.669+01:002011-10-12T22:53:06.669+01:00It depends, yuriive, on what you mean by "out...It depends, yuriive, on what you mean by "out of the ordinary". The point is that it's on a monotone. True, we do sometimes use a low monotone to make sotto voce sentence-fragment comments such as this, or of course it could easily come in the tail of an utterance such as<br /><br />He's done it a\_gain_, the silly old fool.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-6662816802697809602011-10-12T22:12:58.055+01:002011-10-12T22:12:58.055+01:00The way she says it at the very end of the second ...The way she says it at the very end of the second clip that is.yuriivehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03558374848664262968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-52025230156584793332011-10-12T22:10:02.528+01:002011-10-12T22:10:02.528+01:00I'm a native speaker of English and to me the ...I'm a native speaker of English and to me the way the woman says "silly old fool" doesn't sound terribly out of the ordinary.yuriivehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03558374848664262968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-59438557358717093112011-10-12T20:24:03.677+01:002011-10-12T20:24:03.677+01:00Thank you. Unreasonable demands have been made of ...Thank you. Unreasonable demands have been made of late (by understandably disappeared commentators) on your attention to your readers' comments, and I was afraid my prolixity may have been one of them. Well it is, sort of, so I am grateful for even a cursory glance.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-44397529691629850192011-10-12T19:05:49.476+01:002011-10-12T19:05:49.476+01:00Oh, I see, you're asking if I am the first spe...Oh, I see, you're asking if I am the first speaker on the clip. Yes, I am. The second is Jill House. Eight people took part in the recordings.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-42650975443702845902011-10-12T17:45:32.330+01:002011-10-12T17:45:32.330+01:00No of course you're not John Cowan. I addresse...No of course you're not John Cowan. I addressed him as John C and you as John W, with the question "Is that you?" And is it? The antiphonal one, I mean. Don't be coy about your antiphonal accomplishments (or your parsonical genes).mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-67066148217795841252011-10-12T17:25:37.903+01:002011-10-12T17:25:37.903+01:00Yes, "O Lord open thou our lips" is an a...Yes, "O Lord open thou our lips" is an antiphonal versicle from the Book of Common Prayer, often sung (chanted). Response: And our mouth shall show forth thy praise. (I am not John Cowan.)John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-9180049126815621142011-10-12T16:42:36.376+01:002011-10-12T16:42:36.376+01:00Native speaker of both Cantonese and English here ...Native speaker of both Cantonese and English here (also musically trained, but only a beginner linguist):<br /><br />On my first casual listen to the clip, I thought I heard a falling intonation too, but listening more carefully managed to erase that perception. I wonder if also the tendency to perceive a fall at the sentence final position is significant, since I intuitively feel that Cantonese declarative sentences don't fall as much in intonation overall compared to English (so over compensatory perception?). But I may totally be off the mark here.<br /><br />Antonio: despite having lexical tone, yes, we have also intonation at the sentence level.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-76863172030646121942011-10-12T16:38:10.450+01:002011-10-12T16:38:10.450+01:00John C,
As my earlier comment would suggest, I don...John C,<br />As my earlier comment would suggest, I don't perceive all of them in that way, but the versicular one I certainly do. Parsonical influence there, I think. Is that you, John W?mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-76063745272871469242011-10-12T16:27:27.820+01:002011-10-12T16:27:27.820+01:00I wish a NS of Cantonese or any other tonal langua...I wish a NS of Cantonese or any other tonal language had answered the question about Cameron’s speech.<br />I understand that the reason why they are so sensitive to tone is because in their languages it plays a whole different role. So can they understand the role of tone in non-tonal languages?antoniohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16719540287530993736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-45075536284698203952011-10-12T15:55:16.204+01:002011-10-12T15:55:16.204+01:00I also hear the monotones as monotones, and I perc...I also hear the monotones as monotones, and I perceive them as being sung <i>recitativo</i> rather than spoken.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-88559115115070982832011-10-12T12:57:27.710+01:002011-10-12T12:57:27.710+01:00Sounds a monotone to me too.Sounds a monotone to me too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-19262383584239514152011-10-12T11:35:49.910+01:002011-10-12T11:35:49.910+01:00«speakers of Cantonese might well find it difficul...«speakers of Cantonese might well find it difficult to hear the difference between low fall and very low level, since both map onto their tone 4»<br /><br />My explanation exactly, before I even read that. I doubt if the hedging which follows is necessary! What is more, Daniel Jones's description (Principles of the IPA, 1949) "low falling (with very low level as a common variant)" suggests that the low falling variant is the canonical one, so that a NS would not only have learnt NOT to hear the difference, but would tend to perceive both as the canonically low falling variant, and even with a trained ear, could well be influenced by that perception in cases like this in another language.<br /><br />I was prepared to believe that the intended monotone in English might nevertheless have a fall audible even to a NS of English, but no, like you I hear not a low fall but a low level pattern, i.e. a monotone.<br /><br />I was prepared also to believe that my hearing of that would be inconclusive, as there might be some similarly distracting free variance in English intonation, but no, the "very low" monotone is a recognizable intonation in its own right, with completely different connotations from the low fall with which I said it for comparison. In my English at least there is distinct distinctive function there!mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-21542766433258682702011-10-12T11:06:35.418+01:002011-10-12T11:06:35.418+01:00Hm. As a native speaker of Serbian, I seem to have...Hm. As a native speaker of Serbian, I seem to have the same problem as Jacob with both of those low level monotone sentences (your rendition of 'What do I do now?' and 'Silly old fool' as uttered by the female voice).<br /><br />Now, I don't doubt that I could tell which one was which if I heard back to back two recordings of the same sentence, one aimed to be a low level monotone, and one with a low fall. But hearing the monotone as produced above on its own... I wouldn't find it extraordinary, nor would I immediately peg it as a monotone.<br /><br />None of this holds true for the high level monotones, which are very conspicuosly monotone to me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com