tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post8363386452670600989..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: 0.083John Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-12316534761087540772011-10-09T04:59:11.175+01:002011-10-09T04:59:11.175+01:00Very badly played, "John Cowan". Rather ...Very badly played, "John Cowan". Rather transparent.<br /><br />By following John's link, we witness the case of lonely Carlos Quiles, a deluded young fascist from Spain who believes his revival of a 6000-year-old protolanguage (additionally distorted by his own lack of knowledge on the subject) is going <a href="http://books.google.ca/books?id=XFtbEd1ojBsC&pg=RA1-PA105&dq=%22the+current+North-West+Indo-European+reconstruction+should+probably+still+be+used+as+the+main+source+for+Indo-European+language+revival+in+the+European+Union.%22&hl=en&ei=OhqRTsvjJcLe0QGAsNU5&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA" rel="nofollow">to be picked up by the European Union some day</a> for some reason that escapes the minds of the few that bothered to even critique his outlandish notions.<br /><br />Siding with him and his Aryanesque pet project just makes you look like a more obvious ass than you already do. So go to bed, "John Cowan". You're really bad at trolling. Maybe you can stick to linguistics instead of childish heckling.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-57555194109697454932011-10-09T04:12:34.895+01:002011-10-09T04:12:34.895+01:00Members of the community, please don't feed th...Members of the community, <i>please</i> don't feed the troll any more — and it should be clear by now who the troll is. I confess to having done so in a moment of weakness, but really I know better.<br /><br />It's a pity, because he's got some good insights, but he can't tolerate even the slightest disagreement about any of his linguistic dogmatisms without turning on the venom, as you can see above. The same scenario has played itself out over and over <a href="http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-language-blog/2009/01/glen-gordons-paleoglot-blog-about-his-proto-indo-european-and-proto-aegean-or-proto-tyrrhenian-concepts-dogmatism-and-the-conspiracy-of-dogmatic-relativism-in-language-hat-against-hi/" rel="nofollow">on many linguistics-related blogs</a>: the race card, the homophobia card, the "unscientific nonsense" card, the "you're the troll, not me" card, the typo card.<br /><br />The only thing we can do, unless John chooses to ban him, is wait for him to get tired of the game.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-59085316647956356512011-10-08T22:31:16.152+01:002011-10-08T22:31:16.152+01:00Wojciech: "A standard is not just a statistic...<b>Wojciech: <i>"A standard is not just a statistical norm, [...]"</i></b><br /><br />No, a standard isn't necessarily a statistical norm at all as is fully proven in this case which bases itself solely on superficial morphology while ignoring both real-world practice and simple phonotactics. <br /><br />In fact, it's potentially racist to insist that foreign speakers meet such artificial standards that native speakers fail to live up to themselves. (This however is consistent with David Crosbie's exhibited racism above.)Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-4707215193873350192011-10-08T21:40:51.985+01:002011-10-08T21:40:51.985+01:00Ad David and Glen
I think the word 'standard&...Ad David and Glen<br /><br />I think the word 'standard' has a normative connotation to it. That's the problem. A standard is not just a statistical norm, saying how millions of Joneses and Smiths actually do speak, but how they ought to speak (to be invited to dinner in polite company). Now in some countries, for instance France, there is a corresponding _Académie_ to legislate how the Joneses or Smiths (Duponts and Martineaus) ought to speak. In England --- it's an 'upper crust', afaik at least. But it seems to be psychologically easier, less humiliating if I may put the mattter thus, to look up to an _Académie_ for pronunciation models than to an upper crust....Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-57543422942507426942011-10-08T21:15:00.006+01:002011-10-08T21:15:00.006+01:00Wojciech to "David Crosbie": "that ...<b>Wojciech to "David Crosbie": <i>"that is exactly why I do not like the very word 'standard'."</i></b><br /><br />Isn't it somewhat trollish of David Crosbie to have been the <i>first</i> to interfere with this topic to insist on <i>*standards*</i> only to reach the conclusion that they are a "problem"? It's as if he's trying to *appear* educated by solving the very problems he creates. What a grievous waste of life.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-59813389468980753872011-10-08T20:42:40.274+01:002011-10-08T20:42:40.274+01:00Wojciech: "now, does this 'nts' diffe...<b>Wojciech: <i>"now, does this 'nts' differ and if yes, how, from the 'nths' as you described it above?"</i></b><br /><br />Great question and in everyday speech it often doesn't differ at all. A contrast between "nts" (including <i>once</i>, <i>fence</i>, etc.), "nths" and "ns" is still realized without the awkward theta as follows: /nts/, /ns/ and /nz/ respectively. The distinction between /nts/ and /ns/ however is particularly subtle and they would tend to merge to /nts/.<br /><br />At any rate, I expect a qualified linguist to recognize that the differences between a dental fricative and a dental plosive particularly between two instances of /s/, as in "sixths", is utterly minutial. However <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonotactics" rel="nofollow">phonotactics</a> would favour /sts/ over /sθs/, surely.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-7987644245479007472011-10-08T20:30:53.490+01:002011-10-08T20:30:53.490+01:00David Crosbie: "Gook never reached that level...<b>David Crosbie: <i>"Gook never reached that level of familiarity in the English-speaking contexts where I've lived."</i></b><br /><br />That only confirms what we can already gather from your racist typo - that you live in a bubble of ignorance.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-17190289373442504432011-10-08T19:37:02.624+01:002011-10-08T19:37:02.624+01:00Ad David Crosbie
that is exactly why I do not lik...Ad David Crosbie<br /><br />that is exactly why I do not like the very word 'standard'. But I think what you have in England, these various class distinctions --- and if you spoke the way she does (i.e. Eliza D.) instead of the way you do, you would be into selling flowers too, as Mr. 'Iggins sang --- is rather difficult to parallel in any other European language. You can speak for instance standard Italian without sounding snobby, or Russian, or German, in these idioms you sound artificial or 'genteel' at worst. This is also why I have never been eager to visit England, and be it only for a short time.<br /><br />In Polish, which is my belovèd mother tongue, it's rather your choice of words, sometimes your grammar, than your pronunciation that 'absolutely classifies you and make other Poles despise you' to quote Mr. Sw... sorry I meant to say Mr. 'Iggins. Maybe not despise you but sordda look down on you...Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-42512525142516341492011-10-08T12:07:52.143+01:002011-10-08T12:07:52.143+01:00Wojciech
if you learn a foreign language you need...Wojciech<br /><br /><i>if you learn a foreign language you need one pronunciation standard or another to go by, to guide you</i><br /><br />The problem is with the word <i>standard</i>. It has acquired connotations of value judgements, and hence snobbery of various social and intellectual flavours. I think John may have found a way out by writing in terms of two <i>reference accents</i>. The British reference accent is much more an abstraction than what is described by Jones, Gimpson etc — although John uses the same term <i>RP</i> in his <i>Accents of English</i> and his dictionary.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-47374469367559274352011-10-08T11:26:16.438+01:002011-10-08T11:26:16.438+01:00Glen
But in normal speech, what you *perceive* t...Glen<br /><br /><i> But in normal speech, what you *perceive* to be a "faintly articulated 'th'" in "months" is likely not even a true /θ/ but an assimilated /s/ or a hardened /t/ anyway.</i><br /><br />That's very sensible, Glen. I wish you'd said that in the first place.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-85195084771418998552011-10-08T11:23:30.667+01:002011-10-08T11:23:30.667+01:00Glen
Sorry, I didn't mean to put racist words...Glen<br /><br />Sorry, I didn't mean to put racist words in your mouth. <i>Geek</i> is a word I read or hear occasionally and rely on context or intonation to interpret in any but the broadest vaguest significance. <i>Gook</i> never reached that level of familiarity in the English-speaking contexts where I've lived. It was extraordinarily obscure, and I'd completely and totally forgotten that such a word had existed. I thought you'd written <i>gook</i> and it didn't bother me that it wasn't a familiar word.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-17819142959963583102011-10-07T17:53:36.018+01:002011-10-07T17:53:36.018+01:00Ad Glen Gordon
OK, thank you. I imagine you'r...Ad Glen Gordon<br /><br />OK, thank you. I imagine you're near right concerning the faintly articulated 'th'. Now many Americans (not only them certainly) say for instance 'ontse' instead of 'once' (wuns), or perhaps 'fentse' for 'fence' or such. Know what I mean? I guess you do... now, does this 'nts' differ and if yes, how, from the 'nths' as you described it above?Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-81345647244998585872011-10-07T14:43:44.231+01:002011-10-07T14:43:44.231+01:00Wojciech: "But from what I can see months wit...<b>Wojciech: <i>"But from what I can see months with a faintly articulated 'th' is not that horrible."</i></b><br /><br />Yes, of course not. But in normal speech, what you *perceive* to be a "faintly articulated 'th'" in "months" is likely not even a true /θ/ but an assimilated /s/ or a hardened /t/ anyway.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-83781384523252558972011-10-07T14:28:48.795+01:002011-10-07T14:28:48.795+01:00And now the personal attacks when the trolls have ...And now the personal attacks when the trolls have nothing to argue on the topic at hand... yawn.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-25021535236773137212011-10-06T23:07:52.290+01:002011-10-06T23:07:52.290+01:00Gordon, you're going to abandon this blog as y...Gordon, you're going to abandon this blog as you've abandoned so many others that don't meet your standards. So why not do it now, save yourself some heartburn, and the rest of us the effort of wading through your comments?John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-66824128940982281942011-10-06T14:11:02.584+01:002011-10-06T14:11:02.584+01:00@ vp: An incorrigible internet troll, LIPMAN?!
Th...@ vp: An incorrigible internet troll, LIPMAN?!<br /><br />Then what about me?Beatrice Portinarihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13626472955669713053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-4377676189326185292011-10-06T09:11:05.438+01:002011-10-06T09:11:05.438+01:00Ad Glen Gordon
thank you, I generally agree with ...Ad Glen Gordon<br /><br />thank you, I generally agree with you, if I, as a non-native speaker can arrogate to myself to right to agree or disagree with a native-speaker. <br /><br />One thing I would like to avoid is speaking 'too correctly' or hypercorrectly. Polish Catholic priests have the habit of pronouncing certain verbal endings in a way really no-one else pronounces them and which corresponds to the way they are written. This is as if someone said 'Wur-se-ster' for Worcester or Nor-witch for Norwich. But from what I can see months with a faintly articulated 'th' is not that horrible.<br /><br />Re Chinese I agree too, I know a tiny bit of such matters.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-20958111672376411822011-10-06T08:14:44.191+01:002011-10-06T08:14:44.191+01:00On the one hand, I'm engaged in a seemingly ne...On the one hand, I'm engaged in a seemingly never-ending struggle with an incorrigible internet troll.<br /><br />On the other hand, I've just been placed in the same category of linguist as Professor Wells!<br /><br />I think I'll look on the bright side :)vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-81052357960605233602011-10-06T08:10:24.691+01:002011-10-06T08:10:24.691+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-7344510643452618932011-10-06T05:30:18.197+01:002011-10-06T05:30:18.197+01:00Now that we've properly established the conclu...Now that we've properly established the conclusive rarity of /θs#/ in world languages, we might also quote: <a href="http://books.google.ca/books?id=p5a7mmpqbt0C&pg=PA118&dq=%22Take+the+phrase+the+sixth+month:+in+isolation,+sixth+would+be%22+%22but+the+dental+fricative+tends+not+to+be+pronounced+at+all+in+the+phrase+the+sixth+month,+which+is+typically+pronounced+as+%5B3asiksmAnG%5D.%22&hl=en&ei=Ci2NTqW-OeTx0gHcitRS&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Take%20the%20phrase%20the%20sixth%20month%3A%20in%20isolation%2C%20sixth%20would%20be%22%20%22but%20the%20dental%20fricative%20tends%20not%20to%20be%20pronounced%20at%20all%20in%20the%20phrase%20the%20sixth%20month%2C%20which%20is%20typically%20pronounced%20as%20%5B3asiksmAnG%5D.%22&f=false" rel="nofollow">Carr, <i>English phonetics and phonology - An introduction</i> (1999), p.118</a>: "Take the phrase the sixth month: in isolation, sixth would be [sɪksθ], but the dental fricative <b>tends not to be pronounced at all</b> in the phrase the sixth month, which is typically pronounced as [ðəsɪksmʌnθ]."<br /><br />So I assume that Vp is a bitter failed student of linguistics and that's why he trolls with his buddy Lipman. But does this make John Wells a bitter linguist too for refusing to moderate his own commentbox? Why the self-hate? As always, curious.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-44217157114590159162011-10-06T05:29:29.787+01:002011-10-06T05:29:29.787+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-4587664197086561132011-10-06T05:13:34.753+01:002011-10-06T05:13:34.753+01:00"I keep asking for evidence for this claim, b...<b>"I keep asking for evidence for this claim, but I guess I'm wasting my breath."</b><br /><br />One wonders why you don't just stop breathing altogether, troll, because <a href="http://books.google.ca/books?id=sIY1lfnQzsEC&pg=PA30&dq=%22The+dental+fricative,+in+particular,+is+a+very+uncommon+sound+among+the+world's+languages.%22&hl=en&ei=TyiNTsLhNobh0QHb_IA4&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22The%20dental%20fricative%2C%20in%20particular%2C%20is%20a%20very%20uncommon%20sound%20among%20the%20world's%20languages.%22&f=false" rel="nofollow">Bridget Smith (2009)</a> says: "The dental fricative, in particular, is a very uncommon sound among the world's languages." The figure is roughly 7% actually.<br /><br />The percentage of languages that also allow word-final /θs/ is sure therefore to be much lower.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-57706103704549727072011-10-06T02:22:52.257+01:002011-10-06T02:22:52.257+01:00The answer to THAT is: It can't hurt to say /θ...<i>The answer to THAT is: It can't hurt to say /θs/ if one can but the common pronunciation even by native English speakers themselves (whether of RP, Indian or North American English) inevitably involves modifying this sequence</i><br /><br />I keep asking for evidence for this claim, but I guess I'm wasting my breath. Of course, one would expect [t̪s], not [θs], from most Indian English speakers, but I'm talking about native speakers of accents that have [θ]).<br /><br /><i>The differences between /θs/ and /s/ are imperceptible to most people</i><br /><br />You think that "faiths" and "face" sound the same to most people? In rapid conversation perhaps, but otherwise I seriously doubt it.<br /><br />Incidentally, your claim is even more implausible applied to Indian English, because the difference between [t̪s] and [s] is rather obvious.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-64682743372049677452011-10-06T01:21:04.082+01:002011-10-06T01:21:04.082+01:00Wojciech: "Yes, I agree. But if you learn a f...<b>Wojciech: <i>"Yes, I agree. But if you learn a foreign language you need one pronunciation standard or another to go by, to guide you."</i></b><br /><br />Yes, of course. In that case, RP and North American English are the most popular standards to choose from.<br /><br />Yet now you switch questions on us and muddle issues (a theme on this corrupted blog).<br /><br />You initially asked: <b>Given that there are so many pronunciation variants, which one do you chaps recommend to us poor foreign learners?</b> That is, concerning "months", "sixths", etc.<br /><br />The answer to THAT is: It can't hurt to say /θs/ if one can but the <i>common</i> pronunciation even by native English speakers themselves (whether of RP, Indian or North American English) inevitably involves modifying this sequence.<br /><br />And why? Quite simply because this sequence isn't just minor in English, it's utterly rare in world languages. The differences between /θs/ and /s/ are imperceptible to most people and no reasonable person could possibly feel "hostile" to the reduction even if their ears were highly tuned to notice it consciously.<br /><br />Therefore /θs/ is literalist, purist and very artificial. Only the morphology prescribes it. It certainly isn't the most popular, nor can we expect it to be.<br /><br /><b>"Chinese, is ridden with far heavier problems of the same kind."</b><br /><br />I'm not sure exactly what you mean. China's official language is Mandarin. Since Hong Kong was given back to China in '97, Hongkongese too are strongly motivated to adopt Mandarin.<br /><br />It's a common misunderstanding that Mandarin and Cantonese are different <i>dialects</i> of Chinese. However they're in reality mutually unintelligible *languages*.<br /><br />Mandarin alone has several dialects but its standard form is unambiguously modeled on that of Beijing, the one I mimic.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-42239081149052374852011-10-05T07:56:30.839+01:002011-10-05T07:56:30.839+01:00Ad Glen Gordon
'This is understandable but &q...Ad Glen Gordon<br /><br />'This is understandable but "sounding educated" involves actual competency and knowledge, not accent.'<br /><br />Yes, I agree. But if you learn a foreign language you need one pronunciation standard or another to go by, to guide you. I agree with what you write about Iman or Björk, I have long since resigned to never getting quite rid of my Polish accent in all languages I more or less sucessfully have to speak and communicate in---as long as this does not make me unintelligible. And if it does not make me unintelligible, it's because I have tried to imitate some educated standard, the one most easily available to me. Aiming high (you have to have a target to aim at) and reaching something less than perfect but reasonably good. <br /><br />One problem with English, as is seen e. g. from this very discussion here, is that it does not seem to have a 'standard' (I hate this word, but I can't find no bedda) pronunciation model. I have lived, and partly still live in various German-speaking areas and get along well with all of'em with my near-native _standard_ German accent, as prescribed by Messrs. Siebs et Co. In Italian, which is another language I frequently use speaking, listening, writing and reading there is a somewhat shakier standard called 'lingua toscana in bocca romana'. In neither of these do I risk to be hated or despised or sneered at, or sumpin', just for the way I speak. In English, alas, things ain't that comfortable. This is, let me stress, no-one's fault, no-one's to blame for it, and yet ... pity for a world-language.<br /><br />But the next world-language to come (in 20 years' time?), Chinese, is ridden with far heavier problems of the same kind.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.com