tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post866391662905746780..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: a gay accent?John Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-75396994275740034582019-05-13T13:41:10.923+01:002019-05-13T13:41:10.923+01:00Thankyou for this wondrous post, I am glad I ob...Thankyou for this wondrous post, I am glad I observed this website on yahoo. <a href="https://sextoy.com.au/" rel="nofollow">Fleshlight Australia</a><br />Gerard Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07674723158304931575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-82634148706645747062011-08-10T00:52:00.131+01:002011-08-10T00:52:00.131+01:00Assuming honest discussion from here on in (crossi...Assuming honest discussion from here on in (crossing fingers), let's talk:<br /><br /><b>Nick Curnow: <i>"And Glen you make an excellent point about sexuality vs gender identity, however I'm not sure any of the gay men I know who exhibit some of the features being talked about would agree that they are "female-self-identified" whatsoever."</i></b><br /><br />Evidently, you tell us nothing informative about your social circle, nor can it be relevant what your second-hand experiences of the gay male are anyway. If you don't live it, clam it and listen.<br /><br />Afterall, if we take your word that you *do* know gay men, then: Are they using "camp" to attack other members of the GLBT community (ie. internalized homophobia)? Are they in denial about people's general perceptions of their behaviours? Are you familiar enough with these alleged people that they would be upfront about their very personal sexual identity? Etc, etc, etc.<br /><br />So forgive me if I interpreted your quite uninformative statement as a deliberate form of distraction from the topic as reuoq simultaneously humped my leg.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-9048497847263002402011-08-10T00:33:27.280+01:002011-08-10T00:33:27.280+01:00Nick Curnow, any friends of yours who use lisping ...Nick Curnow, any friends of yours who use lisping as a lame, "campy" attack on other people's sexuality as a form of dishonest humour aren't anyone's concern but yours. If insensitive attitudes towards sexuality and your <a href="http://nickcurnowactor.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">blog of conceit</a> are somehow an attempt at self-promotion, your failure is guaranteed.<br /><br />I honestly thought that the association of lisping with gay males died a generation or two ago (like in the Benny Hill era) so I wasn't even talking about any of that in the above.<br /><br />I *was* however alluding to the broader topic concerning the sociology, psychology and biology of so-called "gender differences" in general human behaviour, both conscious and subconscious, both genetic and environmental, both driven by the self and society. From this higher perspective, "gay accent", "gay speech", "camp" and all these other sophomoric terms have no realistic meaning and are merely societally invented constructs. And it even depends on whether you're speaking of the perceptions on sexuality of British society, Canadian society or even global society.<br /><br />I still await an educated discussion on this but if nuts continue with deliberately dense strawman attacks and cheap high-school jabs at me, well then, that only shames yourselves and John Wells for condoning it.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-28891091606795525802011-08-09T04:05:45.260+01:002011-08-09T04:05:45.260+01:00Sorry, I don't want to prolong a topic which h...Sorry, I don't want to prolong a topic which has moved severely away from the friendly discussion I originally commented on and had a keen interest in, but I do also have to voice my displeasure at being a labelled a troll when I posted out of genuine interest in furthering the discussion. <br />This is a controversial topic, and I think most people on here have gone out of their way to be sensitive to others' points of view. Speaking for myself I took most of the afternoon constructing my original post to make sure I avoided any over-generalisation or misunderstanding. <br />I will sign off with three words: Pot. Kettle. Black.Nick Curnowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16549784747171766036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-62860533685092268732011-07-31T03:19:57.836+01:002011-07-31T03:19:57.836+01:00"I noticed a very specific lisp in gay men wh..."I noticed a very specific lisp in gay men when I was in Winnipeg, only young men though. I thought it was curious."<br /><br />Troll.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-64263739505799854462011-07-29T23:58:10.121+01:002011-07-29T23:58:10.121+01:00I noticed a very specific lisp in gay men when I w...I noticed a very specific lisp in gay men when I was in Winnipeg, only young men though. I thought it was curious. <br /><br />I also thought this could not be studied with only phonetics but by social-linguistics (as obvious as it seems nobody has mentioned that).<br /><br />Actually, in this case I would think of phonetics as a tool for social sciences.<br /><br />Linguists by themselves would not be objective enough, well... may be a few of them but they are not supposed to have that degree of objectivity in other fields.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04111037141261530418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-15999087366556382112011-07-25T22:09:14.649+01:002011-07-25T22:09:14.649+01:00You yourself chose to apply a subjective "agg...You yourself chose to apply a subjective "aggressive" label to me instead of talking about the topic at hand so your strategy failed, especially when one has the right to seriously wonder <a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089" rel="nofollow">what involvement in linguistics your profile indicates</a> (quite a disjointed, meaningless mess) and why you have such an exaggerated concern for reuoq's "honour".<br /><br />So I'm proudly aggressive to trolls and anyone who questions why that is is also exposing themselves as a troll. Nobody can seriously be that daft about what goes on on apparently completely unmoderated comment boxes like this and using someone's sexuality against them as above is so overplayed on the net. Grow up.<br /><br />So I'm ending this discussion, Lipman. Don't you or anyone else drag me back into this nonsense if you wish to keep claiming any respect for me or other commenters at all. Thank you. Peace out.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-49489868952055416362011-07-25T13:14:23.896+01:002011-07-25T13:14:23.896+01:00Glen,
yes, I might do that if I had the energy. I...Glen,<br /><br />yes, I might do that if I had the energy. I think your aggression is uncalled for.<br /><br />Concerning the troll question, I don't see that I have enough informaiton to decide whether he is one, and in dubio pro reo. I take it being called a troll and an idiot qualifies for him being in the position of the accused.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-58115361737900426492011-07-25T10:13:09.279+01:002011-07-25T10:13:09.279+01:00I think that Nickolas Grace mastered the 'acce...I think that Nickolas Grace mastered the 'accent' to perfection: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65curvvd39k" rel="nofollow">this is a good example</a>. At one point in the series he says <b>ˈpɪktjʊə</b> several times for <i>picture</i>. He also teaches text interpretation or something to that effect at Central, I believe. <br /><br />Edit: Here it is — <a href="http://www.cssd.ac.uk/content/liberating-text-nickolas-grace" rel="nofollow"><i>Liberating the Text</i></a>.Duchesse de Guermanteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12198316853449400624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-34416071761928886522011-07-25T00:15:37.345+01:002011-07-25T00:15:37.345+01:00"[...] and that many of the issues you list a...<b><i>"[...] and that many of the issues you list are somehow connected."</i></b><br /><br />It would be more constructive if, rather than voicing your indecisiveness for nothing, to be more clear on how you disagree and <i>what exactly</i> you disagree on.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-61246243965840935632011-07-24T13:50:04.867+01:002011-07-24T13:50:04.867+01:00OK. (With the rather technical reserves that I can...OK. (With the rather technical reserves that I can't decide if Reuoq was trolling, having the sole intention to initiate a flame war, and that many of the issues you list are somehow connected.)Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-30303210719481357552011-07-24T11:34:43.536+01:002011-07-24T11:34:43.536+01:00Lipman,
It's difficult to have a meaningful ...Lipman, <br /><br />It's difficult to have a meaningful debate here because, in hindsight, I see we've got too many unrelated things slapped up on the table:<br /> <br />- lisping (unrelated to gays)<br />- "gay speech" (including lisping? some hicks may think so)<br />- gender (what about hermaphrodites? XO? XXY?)<br />- sexuality ("gay" includes lesbians... but details, details)<br />- sexual identity (not just about tranny operations)<br />- traditional roles (religion sucks)<br />- ignorant perceptions of gays (ie. gay male = woman trapped in man's body)<br />- gays' perceptions of themselves (ie. gay males may identify WITH women and be inspired by them)<br />- gender-bending (to embrace sexual "otherness")<br />- Californian and British accents (wtf???)<br />- American anti-intellectualism/racism/homophobia (ie. education, evolution, global warming, British, California = all über gay to extremists)<br /><br />A sloppy mess.<br /><br />So I can't tell whether people are confusing "lisping" with "gay speech", what "gay speech" means to them, whether "gay speech" is just in reference to one's bigotted friends who put on "gay airs" to deride real gays, whether people are misusing "gay" to mean "gay <i>male</i>", whether "gay speech" is "speech styles among gays (including or maybe not including lesbians??)", etc.<br /><br /><b>Lipman: <i>"I don't understand your reaction to Reuoq."</i></b><br /><br />Already stated: patronizing strawman attacks. He's determined to bicker with me that "being feminine is just not the same as *self-identifying as female*" and I have no time for this nonsense. He can look up the definition of <a href="http://www.yoursexhealth.org/html/details.php?det=0,2" rel="nofollow"><i>sexual identity</i></a> in his own time. Even so, where's reuoq going with this pedantic quibble exactly?<br /><br />Meanwhile, Reuoq's involvement <a href="http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=reuoq+%22john+wells%27s+phonetic+blog%22&oq=reuoq+%22john+wells%27s+phonetic+blog%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2007l6179l0l6436l25l20l7l0l0l5l249l1962l1.9.3l13" rel="nofollow">has been superficial here</a> and as far as I'm concerned, one has to earn a few linguistic brownie points showing one's genuine interest in this blog before engaging in a fight with other commenters about their own sexuality and life experience on the matter. I've been blogging since 2007 myself so I've experienced all the typical troll games that sad nuts like to play. It's always the same: exploit some logical fallacy and run it into the ground.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-91910797608823164752011-07-24T08:56:15.266+01:002011-07-24T08:56:15.266+01:00Glen,
Lipman, yes but, if "gay speech"...Glen, <br /><br /><i>Lipman, yes but, if "gay speech" is not in itself a prejudiced term, it's still an uneducated misnomer that a scholar shouldn't be using cavalierly and glibly if they care about what they say and publish. Do you not agree?</i><br /><br />Yes, I don't think I said anything to the contrary. For reasons of scholarly clarity alone, this makes sense. I haven't a good term at hand other than what I mentioned above, but "feminized" certainly doesn't look too lucky to me.<br /><br />I don't understand your reaction to Reuoq.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-65523601174683089022011-07-23T20:49:32.733+01:002011-07-23T20:49:32.733+01:00To John Wells: Can you not please be more sensitiv...<b>To John Wells:</b> Can you not please be more sensitive to this hot-button topic and recognize that there are idiots like reuoq who delight in perverse online gay-bashing by ironically pretending to be gay to incite disagreements through ludicrous strawman attacks like these? Surely not everyone here is that ignorant of how the internet sadly works.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-24368736443236413392011-07-23T20:44:24.999+01:002011-07-23T20:44:24.999+01:00Reuoq, right... not convincing at all, troll. It&#...Reuoq, right... not convincing at all, troll. It's probably the combination of strawman attack, obsessive videogame interest yet lack of overt linguistic interest, and your constant goading me that makes you an obvious troll.<br /><br />Why continue on? Find another commenter to harass. Not bored yet, child? Tsk tsk.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-79027484788188987662011-07-23T19:06:28.147+01:002011-07-23T19:06:28.147+01:00Hey Glen, can you please look up the word "tr...Hey Glen, can you please look up the word "troll" and stop flinging insults? So bloody what if I play videogames?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-33319795200120864752011-07-22T23:15:36.376+01:002011-07-22T23:15:36.376+01:00Here's another suggestion I offer. Could it be...Here's another suggestion I offer. Could it be that really what people are trying to say when they say something stupid like "gay speech" is merely "feminized speech"? Will <i>that</i> do?Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-86251724007836036732011-07-22T23:10:01.575+01:002011-07-22T23:10:01.575+01:00Reuoq, your attacks and misreadings are desperate....<b>Reuoq</b>, your attacks and misreadings are desperate. Obvious anonymous troll obvious. Your name leads to a videogame site so perhaps you should play those and not me, child.<br /><br /><b>Lipman</b>, yes but, if "gay speech" is not in itself a prejudiced term, it's still an uneducated misnomer that a scholar shouldn't be using cavalierly and glibly if they care about what they say and publish. Do you not agree?<br /><br />If you do, we should search out more accurate terms so that we can be clear on its fundamental nature. "Gay speech" has little at all to do with "gay", period. What do you recommend? I'll admit that my suggestions are insufficient.Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-39848327133421798042011-07-22T15:13:14.622+01:002011-07-22T15:13:14.622+01:00Thanks, Glen, for immediately dismissing me as a &...Thanks, Glen, for immediately dismissing me as a "troll", "ignorant" and/or "heterosexual". Next time can you actually try reading what I've written? You used the wrong word, plain and simple. You're absolutely right that we maybe shouldn't be calling it a "gay accent", we should be calling it a "camp accent" or "effeminate accent" – but being feminine is just not the same as *self-identifying as female*, a phrase more usually associated with transexuals by virtue of them being the ones who cross from one gender to the other and for whom this might have to be made explicit. The odd thing is that you seem to understand this because you have a fairly well-informed world view as concerns the various different kinds of people that fall under the broad umbrella of LGBT. And yeah, I do get what you mean by self-identifying *with* women rather than *as* women.<br /><br />Actually, I'm not even sure, because your post seems to be directed at someone else, and I'm not even sure that anyone in the thread has espoused any of the theories that you're railing against here...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-56498896117268745072011-07-22T09:55:49.628+01:002011-07-22T09:55:49.628+01:00This is all just about words. "Gay accent&quo...This is all just about words. "Gay accent" is used by as an unfortunate term for what might be called camp or poncey (which isn't entirely neutral). I don't see a single commenter above claim all gay men speak like that, or only gay men, for that matter.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-51575021878942966972011-07-22T03:48:44.462+01:002011-07-22T03:48:44.462+01:00Nick Curnow and Reuoq,
I figured some trolls woul...Nick Curnow and Reuoq,<br /><br />I figured some trolls would prey on commenters like this to get their lonely rocks off. Predictable.<br /><br />My above points were pretty clear though:<br />A) I'm a proud gay male.<br />B) I urge everyone to separate <i>sexuality</i> from <i>sexual identity</i>.<br />C) "Gay speech" is a sexually ignorant term just as "black speech" is a fundamentally racist term.<br /><br />So ignoring you two trolls (bubbye), I'll further elaborate that "sexual identity" is NOT synonymous with transsexuality. There are also gay transsexuals and straight transsexuals in case people are still having a hard time with separating concepts here. Hell, there are even "butch-acting" m2f transsexuals and "feminine" m2f transsexuals, for example.<br /><br />There's a huge rainbow here, people. Stop being daft.<br /><br />There are SOME gay men, for example, that self-identify WITH women (not AS women) simply because we homosexuals recognize similar struggles toward acceptance and equal rights by women before us. This leads to a common view in the GLBT community that behaving in a feminine manner as a man or being openly butch as a woman is a badge of HONOUR and signals pride in self and one's sexuality. Outside the stuffy heteronormal world, this is a desired trait for obvious reasons.<br /><br /><b>Andaman: <i>"Straight men are not supposed to sound like Valley girls."</i></b><br /><br />Ah but <i>this</i> is precisely what I'm saying. Many gay men may interpret a man sounding like a woman and owning their feminine side as a symbol of pride. It can be disarming to meet another comrade who's openly gay.<br /><br />To an ignorant heterosexual male however, I imagine that it looks "hateful" and "gross" because they haven't been properly educated about life yet. Worse yet, they may label it "gay speech". Ick.<br /><br />Immaturity and ignorance abound where sex, sexuality and sexual identity are concerned. But poor Alan Turing knew the most about that. Apparently it was illegal to be gay once in certain countries...Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-79699050652242398392011-07-21T21:33:44.702+01:002011-07-21T21:33:44.702+01:00Gay people in California round their COT /CAUGHT v...Gay people in California round their COT /CAUGHT vowel: <br /> ''dollar'' , '''collar/caller'', 'tall doll'', ''long song in Hong Kong'', ''mom''<br /> with a rounded O. They pronounce the gOAt diphthong in a British way and make the cOOl vowel very front and diphthongized. <br />Straight men are not supposed to sound like Valley girls.Andamanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17425776665727802612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-5917222687277525382011-07-21T16:23:10.643+01:002011-07-21T16:23:10.643+01:00Uh, Glen I think you're actually managing to m...Uh, Glen I think you're actually managing to mix up sexuality and gender here. Being gay is quite resolutely not the same as self-identifying as female, and similarly, being camp or effeminate perhaps implies that you don't buy into the stereotypes of masculinity but not that you self-identify as female – that is to say, consider yourself a woman. Huge chasm of a difference.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-24445792118688530662011-07-21T03:44:41.363+01:002011-07-21T03:44:41.363+01:00I hasten to add re. my first paragraph that I take...I hasten to add re. my first paragraph that I take no offense and love tackling the taboos. I was part of an enormously and needlessly heated (as per usual) discussion on a wiki page about whether or not AAVE really existed. Needless to say none of the people posting were linguists. <br /><br />And Glen you make an excellent point about sexuality vs gender identity, however I'm not sure any of the gay men I know who exhibit some of the features being talked about would agree that they are "female-self-identified" whatsoever. <br /><br />As a side note I have a speech sample of a Californian transgender female where she explicitly states that she has a male Californian accent. This discussion has spurred me to go back and listen again!Nick Curnowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16549784747171766036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-24313444987804397482011-07-21T03:36:27.587+01:002011-07-21T03:36:27.587+01:00Very interesting. I think this topic has the poten...Very interesting. I think this topic has the potential to cause upset in non-linguists in the same way that alleging an "African American accent" can trouble some people. It's a thorny subject and I'm glad for all the disclaimers. <br /><br />While abjuring the concept of a gay accent, as a gay man myself I have to admit that sometimes you can reasonably suppose another man is gay from their voice, but to my mind it isn't routinely phonetic qualities but prosodic features. As purely anecdotal observations, wider intonation patterns (pitch-wise) and perhaps a more emphatic word stress coupled with vowel lengthening come to mind. Here in Australia the typical butch male Caucasian accent is quite flat in pitch - even if the characteristic Aussie high rising tune is involved - but the "camp" male speakers I know invariably use a much wider pitch range on the same intonation patterns than the butch blokes. <br /><br />Personally, I don't think of myself as having an identifiably "gay voice" but some people respond to the fact that I have the voice of a trained actor and voice coach, as well as a certain North Shore Sydney quality, hence "well-spoken", as a potential indicator. I'm intrigued that some people have mentioned features thought of as effeminate or less masculine in American speakers as being RP features. In light of the fact that sadly for the masses an assumption of sexuality based on vocal qualities would carry an inevitable value judgement, perhaps it is a case of perceived difference in attitude/education/class/affectation? <br /><br />Incidentally, I seem to recall being informed by a Malaysian man that qualities we in the West associate with effeminacy and weakness in men such as lightness of movement, animated gesticulation, and I believe a sibilant /s/ and being softly spoken were considered strong masculine characteristics in his culture. Again anecdotal.Nick Curnowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16549784747171766036noreply@blogger.com