tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post883690320071319376..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: NokiaJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-12225929878613779382010-09-17T22:58:20.402+01:002010-09-17T22:58:20.402+01:00vp
For me personally the ju: would be an anglicis...vp<br /><br />For me personally the <b>ju:</b> would be an anglicism too far.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-59248941615804556372010-09-17T20:04:43.765+01:002010-09-17T20:04:43.765+01:00What's to odd about /fju:'sɪlɪ/ ? It is j...What's to odd about /fju:'sɪlɪ/ ? It is just following regular English spelling conventions.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-24376496489345353352010-09-16T20:56:53.357+01:002010-09-16T20:56:53.357+01:00Mallamb
I heard one better than 'nɔki or glɪ&...Mallamb<br /><br />I heard one better than <b>'nɔki</b> or <b>glɪ'sændoʊ</b> on <i>Woman's Hour</i> this morning. A youngish-sounding RP-accented female reporter in an Italian restaurant painted a picture of odd things ion the kitchen shelves, like the <b>fju:'sɪlɪ</b> pasta.<br /><br />Foreign food vocabulary is generally learnt from menus.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-65091315282836792392010-09-16T17:35:23.992+01:002010-09-16T17:35:23.992+01:00@Alex,
I think Sony has a short sound in Japanese,...@Alex,<br /><i>I think Sony has a short sound in Japanese, but not sure</i><br /><br />It does have a short sound in Japanese. (And a long one: the y is ī, though not consistently long in Tokyo.) LPD makes this quite clear, and gives the variant ˈsɒni for BrE, but not for AmE.<br /><br />@David<br /><i>I say glɪ'sændoʊ and would say kæl,tæni'sɛtə — unless, of course I am (or were) in Italy and/or speaking to an Italian. (My stress of the unfamiliar Caltanissetta would be a guess.)</i><br /><br />Not a very long shot, is it?<br /><br /><i>I wouldn't think of them as 'anglo saxon' words, but I neither would I think of them as 'foreign' in the sense of cancelling out English spelling conventions.</i><br /><br />Good for you. I say ˈnɪsæn.<br /><br />@Sam<br /><i>would there be a parallel in the pronunciation of the o in Van Gogh?</i><br /><br />And if AmE dropped the gh in yoghurt as well it would be an even better parallel, and unlike Van Gogh, justified by the original. Again, goto LPD. That also accepts my væn ˈgɒx, which doesn’t conflict with my support for David as I include [x] in English spelling conventions.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-15483671053961299442010-09-16T08:22:32.986+01:002010-09-16T08:22:32.986+01:00First time poster, and non-IPA speaker: re the fir...First time poster, and non-IPA speaker: re the first syllable of yoghurt in BrE vs AmE, would there be a parallel in the pronunciation of the o in Van Gogh?Samnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-55730385349996831272010-09-15T19:41:48.945+01:002010-09-15T19:41:48.945+01:00Maybe because people more or less consciously assu...Maybe because people more or less consciously assume there the "letter" O comes in two sorts - the short one (LOT) and the long one (GOAT) - and that's it.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-11278268715300931782010-09-15T19:29:49.404+01:002010-09-15T19:29:49.404+01:00I wonder why THOUGHT is so rare in recent loanword...I wonder why THOUGHT is so rare in recent loanwords. Very often is a far better approximation to the original sound than either GOAT or LOT.army1987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-67207381608886870682010-09-15T12:35:05.030+01:002010-09-15T12:35:05.030+01:00Jeongseong
I say glɪ'sændoʊ and would say kæl...Jeongseong<br /><br />I say <b>glɪ'sændoʊ</b> and would say <b>kæl,tæni'sɛtə</b> — unless, of course I am (or were) in Italy and/or speaking to an Italian. (My stress of the unfamiliar <i>Caltanissetta</i> would be a guess.)<br /><br />I wouldn't think of them as 'anglo saxon' words, but I neither would I think of them as 'foreign' in the sense of cancelling out English spelling conventions.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-72953241468150483982010-09-15T03:38:53.622+01:002010-09-15T03:38:53.622+01:00to me, anything other than n at the beginning of g...to me, anything other than n at the beginning of gnocchi sounds unbearably pretentious<br /><br />The g with a bar in Turkish makes the previous vowel sound longer, so as a former low Elementary speaker of the language it sounds more like the American pron of yoghurt than the British one to me<br /><br />I think Sony has a short sound in Japanese, but not sureAlex Casehttp://www.tefl.net/alexcasenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-10727895979675267942010-09-14T20:27:10.322+01:002010-09-14T20:27:10.322+01:00David, does the same apply to the iss in Italian w...David, does the same apply to the <b>iss</b> in Italian words like <i>glissando</i> or <i>Caltanissetta</i>?<br /><br />After all, the sequence signals an [i] followed by a geminated s in both Italian and the romanization of Japanese.Jongseonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12558136756392729306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-11155045232422124962010-09-14T13:26:23.440+01:002010-09-14T13:26:23.440+01:00For me at least, the iss spelling in Nissan is dec...For me at least, the <b>iss</b> spelling in <i>Nissan</i> is decisive. It puts it out of the class 'foreign'. I don't mind a BATH vowel in <i>Iran</i>, <i>Koran</i> and other exotics, but it's out of the question with 'Anglo Saxon' words like <i>ran</i> and <i>man</i> or even relatively 'foreign' words like <i>sedan</i>.<br /><br />In fact, <b>'nɪˌsæn</b> isn't the obvious spelling pronunciation. For many of us in Britain, that would be <b>'nisn</b>. Somehow the secondary stress has spread through speech. But <i>Nissan</i> is a word that we <b><i>read </i></b> more often than we hear or say, and the spelling effect is strong here.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-78790339667434023102010-09-14T00:49:05.091+01:002010-09-14T00:49:05.091+01:00Thanks for the post, John--it was actually the que...Thanks for the post, John--it was actually the question of one of my Twitter followers, @Boston1775. <br /><br />@vp--I'd raised the same point about Nissan in my original message...seemed related to me too, though I must admit I don't think I've heard the word in BrE, just in South African E.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-86057722664948587612010-09-13T23:55:28.752+01:002010-09-13T23:55:28.752+01:00In fact orthographic i seems usually to be KIT, an...In fact orthographic i seems usually to be KIT, and never PRICE, before orthograpic Cia$<br /><br />Examples include tibia, trivia, militia, ilia, and all the -philia and -bilia words. Perhaps this is an accident of Latin vowel lengths.<br /><br />Words courtesy of http://www.visca.com/regexdict/vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-54127333208115659082010-09-13T23:54:40.586+01:002010-09-13T23:54:40.586+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-28476788348265876412010-09-13T23:27:24.743+01:002010-09-13T23:27:24.743+01:00John sez “the BrE pronunciation of Nokia does seem...John sez “the BrE pronunciation of Nokia does seem to be exceptional from a spelling-to-sound point of view”. Okay, but it’s certainly not uniquely so. Most of us say Sŏnia rather than Sōnia, tho the reverse applies to Sony. He adds “In bulimia we get not only ɪ but also unexpectedly iː. (The same is true of memorabilia.)” Right, but it’s not so very unexpected if we remember that EPD for Cecilia always had only /ɪ/ before 1977. John was no dout right to give /iː/ first in LPD1 in 1990. These are just the ongoing influence of Continental languages that accounts too for /iː/ replacing /ɪ/ in niche. Slovakian has had all three of /ӕ, ɑː & eɪ/. As to /-gl- in tagiatelle but “not, for some reason, of the gn in bolognese. Perhaps we're influenced by gnocchi”. <br />That last I dout but it seems that spaghetti bolognese is widely influenced by confusion with the French bolognaise usually /bɒlə`neɪz/. Apologies to US readers for talking only in terms of Brit usages.JWLhttp://www.yek.me.uk/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-70028657221633593822010-09-13T21:02:52.275+01:002010-09-13T21:02:52.275+01:00David Crosbie and mollymooly: my father (born in H...<a href="http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/2010/09/nokia.html?showComment=1284394596291#c1655744354525127135" rel="nofollow">David Crosbie</a> and <a href="http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/2010/09/nokia.html?showComment=1284404866652#c7305129535906406855" rel="nofollow">mollymooly</a>: my father (born in Hampshire, UK, 1957) pronounces <i>Bolognese</i> with the /g/ i.e. /bɒl.əg.ˈneɪz/. <br />(I've never heard anyone else pronounce the /g/ though).Shane Whitenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-73051295359064068552010-09-13T20:07:46.652+01:002010-09-13T20:07:46.652+01:00The variation in pronunciation of yog(h)urt correl...The variation in pronunciation of yog(h)urt correlates somewhat with the variation in spelling. In Ireland these are usually GOAT and h-less respectively.<br /><br />Although "bolognese" doesn't have a spelling pronunciation, "spag bog" brings the g out right good.mollymoolynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-39863364517076863902010-09-13T19:57:06.062+01:002010-09-13T19:57:06.062+01:00/'nɔkja/ in Danish despite us having a perfect.../'nɔkja/ in Danish despite us having a perfectly servicable /o/. (I'm not gonna put any money on the value of that a, though.)Jens Knudsen (Sili)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14078875730565068352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-89704744991941156182010-09-13T18:38:34.638+01:002010-09-13T18:38:34.638+01:00And of course I meant "one of these commercia...And of course I meant "one of these commercials" - plural. I shoulda stood in bed.Amy Stollerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14067839246823753590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-50921015649254417072010-09-13T18:35:53.036+01:002010-09-13T18:35:53.036+01:00Thanks, MKR, for letting me know I was not alone!
...Thanks, MKR, for letting me know I was not alone!<br /><br />I don't believe I've ever seen a commercial for Nokia on television. But my curiosity was piqued by this discussion, so I went looking on the web, and finally found an American one. The actor said ˈnoʊkiə, so presumably someone high up on the Nokia food-chain approved oʊ for the US market, but also wanted to preserve first-syllable stress.<br /><br />If I'd ever seen one of these commercial on the air, I'd have realized much sooner that I was putting the emPHASis on the wrong sylLAble.Amy Stollerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14067839246823753590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-36752140973686637402010-09-13T18:16:42.339+01:002010-09-13T18:16:42.339+01:00I second what Amy Stoller says about how Americans...I second what Amy Stoller says about how Americans pronounce "Nokia," namely with the stress on the second syllable. In fact, I had no idea that the brand was anything but Japanese until I read her comment!Miles Rindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03733605717776262840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-82242659546759930152010-09-13T17:37:05.466+01:002010-09-13T17:37:05.466+01:00Oh, good grief, my eyes ... Thank you, Eric, of c...Oh, good grief, my eyes ... Thank you, Eric, of course I meant ɲ, not ŋ. I just hit the wrong key. <br /><br />Don't you just hate tpyos?Amy Stollerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14067839246823753590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-16557443545251271352010-09-13T17:16:36.291+01:002010-09-13T17:16:36.291+01:00The beauty of gnocchi is that a spelling pronuncia...The beauty of <i>gnocchi</i> is that a spelling pronunciation is out of the question (for the initial consonant, that is). So <b>ɲ</b> and <b>n</b> make the word equally familiar and equally intelligible.<br /><br />In Britain we do hear spelling pronunciations of the <i>gl</i> in <i>tagliatelle</i>. But not, for some reason, of the <i>gn</i> in <i>bolognese</i>. Perhaps we're influenced by <i>gnocchi</i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-49479531688134532082010-09-13T16:56:45.337+01:002010-09-13T16:56:45.337+01:00@Amy Stoller said: "This American pronounces ...@Amy Stoller said: "This American pronounces gnocchi the Italian way. And I usually hear ŋ (or nj), followed by either ɑ or oʊ, from others here." <br /><br />I too hear gnocchi in a similar fashion, though I believe what you mean isn't ŋ but ɲ, ie. a palatal nasal rather than a velar one. I hear more oʊ than ɒ in Toronto, but both are definitely possible.Eric Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08094743208990648149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-69106450919431132012010-09-13T16:28:42.716+01:002010-09-13T16:28:42.716+01:00http://tinyurl.com/39tvyu7<a href="http://tinyurl.com/39tvyu7" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/39tvyu7</a>Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.com