tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post1071112473859020065..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: Wari’John Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-31123894832658718372020-08-25T16:36:52.184+01:002020-08-25T16:36:52.184+01:00Money Gadget
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If I make take the liberty of copying one o...David,<br />If I make take the liberty of copying one of your comments that I got from the feed I subscribed to, and which indeed seems to have disappeared:<br /> <br />«Let me hazard the guess that /u/ came to be blamed on the preceding consonant, creating the labiovelar phonemes and /tʷ/ in the process; /tʷ/ later became unrounded to [t͡ʙ̥].<br /><br />There is a language in the Amazon somewhere that has a /tʷ/ which has [t͡ʙ̥] as an allophone.»<br /><br />That was exactly the same guess as I was hazarding myself in my earlier post:<br /><br />«Perhaps their /o/ has a realizational range approaching [u] or perhaps the labiovelars are not as labiovelar as they're cracked up to be, having for example allophones like [o̯] which could just be non-nuclear /o/. And then is [wo] or [o̯o] attested at all? Japanese /u/ is [ɯ] and the alleged /w/ is very marginal, only appearing (and disappearing) before /a/ as [ɯ̯].<br />And whatever the realizational correlates of the Wari' ʙ̥ off-glide and the "labialization" of the velar plosive and fricative, what is the evidence that they are simultaneous distinctive features rather than allophones of this "labiovelar" approximant?»<br /><br />You may have intended your disappeared comment to be an answer to that, and it does give some corroboration of my suspicions, but you're not being very precise about this language in the Amazon.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-2582391054169913032011-03-18T12:51:58.176+00:002011-03-18T12:51:58.176+00:00Did all the comments disappear that I made yesterd...Did all the comments disappear that I made yesterday night??? I very distinctly remember commenting on this:<br /><br /><i>What I'd call spectacular is a system that is </i>*two*<i> vowels off from symmetry. I don't know of any offhand. Does anyone else?</i><br /><br />Does Wichita count? It has /a e i/, where /a/ is central and /e i/ are distinctly front in, apparently, all environments.David Marjanovićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-70297214778048762552011-02-19T23:09:24.150+00:002011-02-19T23:09:24.150+00:00Isn't conservative Irish Englsh almost perfect...Isn't conservative Irish Englsh almost perfectly <br />symmetrical?<br /><br />fleece kit foot goose<br />face dress strut goat<br />palm trap lot thoughtvphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-16553102469464457092011-02-19T19:22:19.005+00:002011-02-19T19:22:19.005+00:00I support mallamb's inquiry. If a vowel system...I support mallamb's inquiry. If a vowel system has no contrast between /u/ and /o/, surely it must have a <i>phonemic range</i> between these two cardinal vowels. As such, the usual vowel system diagram we use can be misleading.<br /><br />I study Etruscan which also lacks a contrast between /o/ and /u/ (as do a slew of other languages then and now, btw; cf. Hittite). Judging by Latin reflexes of Etruscan names and words, /u/ was expressed by a range of allophonic values hovering around that back-high region. So in effect, we're only speaking about a "one-off asymmetry", ie. it's really only one vowel off from a pleasing symmetry.<br /><br />What I'd call spectacular is a system that is <i>*two*</i> vowels off from symmetry. I don't know of any offhand. Does anyone else?Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-6184616002795696762011-02-19T19:03:23.111+00:002011-02-19T19:03:23.111+00:00@Anonymous:
Yeah, that is true about the checked-f...@Anonymous:<br />Yeah, that is true about the checked-free distinction, however, I see no reason of postulating such a distinction on this level of description (seen from a "universal typological perspective").<br /><br />CHOICE is a real anomaly, fully agreed.<br /><br />Centring diphthongs do really seem to make things messy, though (although they may be entirely excluded from the phoneme inventory).Levente Frindtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-55951604926998128342011-02-19T12:26:10.815+00:002011-02-19T12:26:10.815+00:00@Levente:
BET is a checked vowel while NURSE and T...@Levente:<br />BET is a checked vowel while NURSE and THOUGHT aren't; also, if you throw diphtongs in, you have /OI/ (CHOICE) but no /EU/ for example; in many (most?) accents there's a CURE-FORCE merger ongoing but no corresponding NEAR-SQUARE merger; and so on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-42804513142246651752011-02-19T10:34:19.681+00:002011-02-19T10:34:19.681+00:00Sorry, Harry. I was just being facetious about Sco...Sorry, Harry. I was just being facetious about Scots whose back vowels are all strongly centralized.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-69525041652846566872011-02-19T04:27:28.739+00:002011-02-19T04:27:28.739+00:00Scottish accents with "no back vowels whatsoe...Scottish accents with "no back vowels whatsoever"? I may be very dense but I don't get it.Harry Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01675794936870568336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-86340414838229247402011-02-19T03:11:11.790+00:002011-02-19T03:11:11.790+00:00It's funny, because I always thought of the Fa...It's funny, because I always thought of the Farsi vowel system as being asymmetrical. For one thing, the low back vowel is rounded and the low front one isn't. I guess that isn't important when it comes to the symmetry of a vowel system.Stevenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-57078058327482212162011-02-18T23:28:41.008+00:002011-02-18T23:28:41.008+00:00@ Christian: I believe there are other American ac...@ Christian: I believe there are other American accents like that too. Southern comes to mind.Philnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-69752811256276088752011-02-18T18:37:07.813+00:002011-02-18T18:37:07.813+00:00i-u
ɪ-ʊ
e ɜ ɔ
æ ʌ ɒ
-ɑ-
What is messy about this?...i-u<br />ɪ-ʊ<br />e ɜ ɔ<br />æ ʌ ɒ<br />-ɑ-<br /><br />What is messy about this? :)Levente Frindtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-29592593749318991512011-02-18T17:16:51.271+00:002011-02-18T17:16:51.271+00:00Christian,
>a system with no back vowels whatso...Christian,<br />>a system with no back vowels whatsoever.<<br /><br />I know Scottish English like that!mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-74866164548516729972011-02-18T16:21:46.063+00:002011-02-18T16:21:46.063+00:00If that thinɡ is an affricate, I'm a Cornish p...If that thinɡ is an affricate, I'm a Cornish piskey!<br /><br />Arapaho has a strange vowel system with no open vowels.John Maidmenthttp://blogjam.namenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-44328227059360613162011-02-18T16:12:08.679+00:002011-02-18T16:12:08.679+00:00If I remember correctly, in the Turkish eight-vowe...If I remember correctly, in the Turkish eight-vowel phonology [a] is treated as the unrounded equivalent of [o], correct? That's what the Wari six-vowel system reminds me of.AJDhttp://ling.upenn.edu/~dinkinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-6007763885075615302011-02-18T14:49:12.001+00:002011-02-18T14:49:12.001+00:00Ian Maddieson has remarked that 4 vowel systems te...Ian Maddieson has remarked that 4 vowel systems tend to be asymmetrical in lacking back vowel distinctions. In a language I work on, Ixcatec, /o/ and /u/ are in free variation with each other. There are only four oral vowel contrasts: /i/, /e/, /a/, /o~u/.<br /><br />One wonders if the system in Wari' evolved from historical vowel allophony in a 4-vowel system. This might shed light on its asymmetry. I remember reading somewhere that a number of Amazonian languages had 4 vowel systems.<br /><br />Californian English might be a close second to Wari' though. The near-close back lax vowel /ʊ/ is produced as [ɨ], the close back vowel /u/ is produced as [ɨw], and the close-mid back vowel /o/ as [əw]. Though this does not represent all speakers, it reflects a system with no back vowels whatsoever.Christianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00108470058202380066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-38250303502179895102011-02-18T14:12:37.316+00:002011-02-18T14:12:37.316+00:00If I'm not mistaken, dental affricaties of tha...If I'm not mistaken, dental affricaties of that type are an areal feature in several Amazonian languages, with voiced and voiceless versions in various languages. They usually bear fairly low functional load, and sometimes aren't clearly phonemic. I believe Wari' actually has a voiced version as well, at least in a few words.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13845139257399756782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-15029818276113655622011-02-18T13:14:01.926+00:002011-02-18T13:14:01.926+00:00Perhaps their /o/ has a realizational range approa...Perhaps their /o/ has a realizational range approaching [u] or perhaps the labiovelars are not as labiovelar as they're cracked up to be, having for example allophones like [o̯] which could just be non-nuclear /o/. And then is [wo] or [o̯o] attested at all? Japanese /u/ is [ɯ] and the alleged /w/ is very marginal, only appearing (and disappearing) before /a/ as [ɯ̯]. <br /><br />And whatever the realizational correlates of the Wari' ʙ̥ off-glide and the "labialization" of the velar plosive and fricative, what is the evidence that they are simultaneous distinctive features rather than allophones of this "labiovelar" approximant?<br /><br />I seemed to remember Everett stated that [ʙ] was a domain-specific phoneme in Pirahã. How extraordinary if foreigners have been Heisenberg-type observers in both that and Wari'.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-83967621846035719782011-02-18T12:57:21.920+00:002011-02-18T12:57:21.920+00:00@Richard L: yes, Everett said that the Pirahã were...@Richard L: yes, Everett said that the Pirahã were so used to being mocked for saying <b>/b/</b> as <b>[ʙ]</b> that they avoided it in the presence of foreigners and always pronounced it as <b>[b]</b> instead.Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13722482936100504510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-71449326743526786662011-02-18T11:50:57.660+00:002011-02-18T11:50:57.660+00:00Isn't it strange to have labiovelars but to no...Isn't it strange to have labiovelars but to not have [u]? Just seems naturally odd, to me. I don't have any scientific data to base this on. <br /><br />Everett stated that [ʙ] was a domain-specific phoneme, used only when foreigners were not around and during the hunt (if I recall correctly.) For this reason Everett didn't find it for quite a considerable period. Is it possible that contact has lead to a shrinking of this domain in Wari', leading to a shift from [t͡ʙ] to [t]?Richard L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01922168505806787799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-12106089122118256842011-02-18T11:33:56.462+00:002011-02-18T11:33:56.462+00:00Oh I think we're on topic all right with rude ...Oh I think we're on topic all right with rude remarks about atavistic ideas of the inerrancy of Universal Grammar, especially in its attempts to swallow phonology and phonetics whole. I believe in Dan Everett, and so apparently does John, and my allusion to the pity of it all was motivated by my all-encompassing belief that the pity is that Chomsky is Chomsky.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-58933378278370162642011-02-18T11:06:11.767+00:002011-02-18T11:06:11.767+00:00@mallamb: Well they can't both be right, can t...@mallamb: Well they can't both be right, can they? If Everett's analysis of Pirahã is right and it constitutes a counterexample to Universal Grammar, does that mean the whole theory collapses completely?<br /><br />Sorry - ignore me - we're going off topic.<br /><br />Funnily enough, Pirahã has a similar sound <b>[ʙ]</b> as an allophone of <b>/b/</b>. Are we back on topic now?Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13722482936100504510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-67446471005797452742011-02-18T10:42:12.878+00:002011-02-18T10:42:12.878+00:00Dan Everett does find them, doesn't he? A pity...Dan Everett does find them, doesn't he? A pity Chomsky doesn't believe he and his Pirahã exist.<br /><br />By "simplifying their consonant system" I suppose you mean these younger speakers simply merge t and t͡ʙ̥, which is a bit surprising. Is there any evidence that the first part of the affricate survives as a distinct t-type phoneme with some less exotic distinctive feature? One could imagine some less turbulent form of aspiration maintaining the distinction, perhaps.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.com