tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post1981956768867264232..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: de’ MediciJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-49952145987962533722010-11-24T02:13:25.596+00:002010-11-24T02:13:25.596+00:00@ John Cowan: That was hilarious. Thank you.@ John Cowan: That was hilarious. Thank you.Philnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-29040328331935836202010-10-29T15:43:12.446+01:002010-10-29T15:43:12.446+01:00Phil: East Coast Americans tend to learn Caribbean...Phil: East Coast Americans tend to learn Caribbean Spanish rather than Mexican, and <a href="http://home.ccil.org/~cowan/essential.html#Spanish" rel="nofollow">Mexican Spanish is essentially all consonants; Caribbean Spanish is essentially all vowels.</a>John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-52333909101473597192010-10-27T10:39:23.972+01:002010-10-27T10:39:23.972+01:00Steve, you're right. I didn't express myse...Steve, you're right. I didn't express myself correctly. Most italian words are indeed plane (accent on the penultimate syllable).Massimohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14718796918936497242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-6277049925032861032010-10-26T12:55:17.910+01:002010-10-26T12:55:17.910+01:00Mallamb
Yes, of course, I'm a native English ...Mallamb<br /><br />Yes, of course, I'm a native English speaker, familiar with Marathi only through marriage and game but not particularly proficient. I struggle to make many of the distinctions unfamiliar to an English ear but even to me <b>mumbəiː</b> and <b>mʊmˈbaɪ</b> sound different. I get your message - I don't think I was disagreeing. I wasn't suggesting any of the versions you hear in English are "right" or "wrong", just that none sound like you'd hear it said in the city itself - which was what I took you to be pointing out for Myanmar. Thanks though, for pointing me to a distinguished authority on accepted English pronunciation. I shall now feel safer to use the word in English.Ian Prestonhttp://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctp100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-52844499780462266242010-10-26T11:12:46.779+01:002010-10-26T11:12:46.779+01:00In my accent the tap and the trill are more-or-les...In my accent the tap and the trill are more-or-less in free variation, with the tap more frequent in syllable onsets and the trill in codas. But Canepari (with his usual excess precision) claims that /r/ is always a tap in unstressed syllables and always a trill in stressed ones.army1987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-83039288557683779842010-10-26T10:51:06.201+01:002010-10-26T10:51:06.201+01:00@Massimo: I think there are loads of words where t...@Massimo: I think there are loads of words where the penultimate syllable is both open and stressed. All verbs in <em>-are</em> and <em>-ire</em>, verbal endings like <em>-ete, -ei, -emo</em>, adjectives in <em>-ese, -oso, -ele (crudele</em> etc.), <em>-eno, avere, sedere</em>...Steve Doerrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11410868047916610730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-60047578221293179742010-10-26T10:32:16.152+01:002010-10-26T10:32:16.152+01:00mallamb wrote:
> Steve, some of these musical ...mallamb wrote:<br /><br />> Steve, some of these musical groups that use <br />> the name I Musici are regularly called <br />> ˌiːmuˈziːtʃi also call themselves that. You <br />> have reminded me of a recent report that the <br />> British Medici String Quartet, having long <br />> resisted all efforts to get them to call <br />> themselves ˈmeidɪtʃi instead of mɪˈdiːtʃi, had <br />> finally caved in and started doing so.<br /><br />True, I hadn't thought of that! Still, it wouldn't apply to <a href="http://www.imusicidiroma.com" rel="nofollow">this lot</a>. Going back to Classic FM, <em>I Musici de Montréal</em> normally comes out as <b>iːmuˈziːʧidəˌmɒntriˈɔːl</b>: heaven knows what they call themselves - if they're French-speaking probably <b>imuziˈʧidmɔ̃reˈal</b>.Steve Doerrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11410868047916610730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-81903246895924641182010-10-26T10:24:23.473+01:002010-10-26T10:24:23.473+01:00Ian,
Oh dear, I of course didn't mean you, as ...Ian,<br />Oh dear, I of course didn't mean you, as I take it you are not of Marathi-speaking origin yourself. But of course you do have a Marathi-speaking family, so it may well have read as if I was being beastly. I think you got the message though. To try to pronounce Mumbai in English as in Marathi, and perhaps even to feel less ridiculous doing so, you would need the ethnicity as well as the family.<br /><br />Yes, Mumbai does look like and is a transliteration of a Marathi word pronounced in a way that doesn't come naturally to a native English speaker, and like most of these revamped toponyms it does feel uncomfortably like a failed attempt at faux authenticity however you pronounce it!<br /><br />You seem to have implied mʊmˈbaɪ is <i>not</i> the right way to anglicise it, but it is not just me, but no less a person than John Wells who says that it is acceptable, or gives ˌmʊmˈbaɪ for it in LPD, at any rate. Not sure why he gives it a subsidiary stress mark – it never sounds to me much like two phonotagms or anything that would justify that. He doesn't give the original Marathi pronunciation either, I suppose because he doesn't think it's different enough.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-25522753309912301712010-10-26T10:07:54.823+01:002010-10-26T10:07:54.823+01:00Actually there is a rule of thumb to predict wheth...Actually there is a rule of thumb to predict whether the accent is on the penultimate or the antepenultimate. if the penultimate syllable is closed (like in copèrto) then the accent is on the penultimate syllable. If the syllable is open then the accent is on the antepenultimate, like in pòvero. There are a few exceptions to this last rule (I can name cerìno, panìno, but they are all diminutives). But I can name just one exception for the first one (pòlizza) and a few toponyms.Massimohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14718796918936497242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-77236193713849819142010-10-26T09:12:38.618+01:002010-10-26T09:12:38.618+01:00Alex, I have to agree that [ˈpəʊveɾo] is not Itali...Alex, I have to agree that [ˈpəʊveɾo] is not Italian, but the vowel I heard is not /ɔ:/ either. I see from the literature that many Italians confuse /ɔ/ and /o/, and I think, from memory after many years away, that the vowel I heard in that position is the latter.Simon M Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06879703456056313280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-2574762696578090942010-10-26T07:36:17.455+01:002010-10-26T07:36:17.455+01:00@ Lazar: You mean in most positions where it's...@ Lazar: You mean in most positions where it's spelled with a single <em>r</em>, correct?Alecnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-70017035896654183652010-10-26T02:53:11.458+01:002010-10-26T02:53:11.458+01:00On Italian r, Wikipedia says "The trill /r/ i...On Italian <i>r</i>, Wikipedia says "The trill /r/ is sometimes reduced to a single vibration when single, but it remains potentially a trill, not a flap [ɾ]." However, I don't know if other sources agree with this, and I'm not sure if I can produce/hear the difference myself.<br /><br />Since no one has mentioned it yet, I will add that in French, the name is usually pronounced [medisis], especially when referring to the Italo-French Catherine de' Medici (Catherine de Médicis).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-1802153655781737302010-10-26T02:52:13.184+01:002010-10-26T02:52:13.184+01:00@Phil: I think it's pretty indisputable that s...@Phil: I think it's pretty indisputable that standard Italian includes an alveolar tap. I've seen a number of (convoluted) rules regarding the distribution of the tap and the trill:<br /><br />- Luciano Canepari says that /r/ is [r] when it is within a stressed syllable, and [ɾ] elsewhere.<br /><br />- The opera site ipasource.com transcribes /r/ as [ɾ] when between two vowels, and [r] elsewhere.<br /><br />Based on the Italian speech that I've heard (which, admittedly, isn't a great deal), it seems extremely common to use [ɾ] in most or all positions. I once heard a recording of a standard Italian speaker pronouncing the word "Roma", in isolation, as ['ɾo:ma].Lazar Taxonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13221219358689771815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-41960638902082444212010-10-26T00:22:34.698+01:002010-10-26T00:22:34.698+01:00If I hadn't had this thread kicking around in ...If I hadn't had this thread kicking around in my head, I wouldn't have noticed Jeremy Paxman <b>correctly</b> stressing <i>arte povera</i> on TV tonight. It's not usually that lack of error/mistake that one notices.<br /><br />I assume that it's the English word <i>poverty</i> that keeps us straight.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-67431434690726512452010-10-25T23:54:06.578+01:002010-10-25T23:54:06.578+01:00The length mark in [ˈpɔːveɾo] is there for the sak...The length mark in [ˈpɔːveɾo] is there for the sake of <i>phonetic</i> accuracy, I believe; it should be there if you want to show how the word is actually pronounced, even though vowel length is predictable (i.e. non-contrastive) in Modern Italian. (Stressed vowels are long in open syllables and short in closed ones, so /ˈpɔveɾo/ (or /ˈpɔvero/) should be the right <i>phonemic</i> transcription as far as the stressed vowel is concerned, but I really don't know how to treat the unstressed ɛ/e and ɔ/o neutralisations phonemically.) <br />"əʊ" is definitely not an option (except in Anglicised Italian words, and then, I suppose, it's the result of applying English spelling-to-sound rules, rather than a systematic substitute for It. close-mid /o/).<br /><br />As far as I know, a single "R" can be either a tap or a (short) trill, but I too think you hear taps more often (and sometimes it's rather hard to tell which one you hear in fast speech).Mitko Sabevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05716261390693316374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-24491744345937327392010-10-25T22:09:47.418+01:002010-10-25T22:09:47.418+01:00If I'm being so precise with diacritics, then ...If I'm being so precise with diacritics, then I suppose [p˭ästs] would have been better.Philnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-30151085202512283212010-10-25T22:03:31.720+01:002010-10-25T22:03:31.720+01:00@ John Wells (first comment): Actually in (some) M...@ John Wells (first comment): Actually in (some) Mexican Spanish (which is the type I learned being an American) some vowel reduction is acceptable. For example <em>pesos</em>, <em>pesas</em>, and <em>peces</em> can all be pronounced the same as [ˈp˭e̞səs] and <em>pastas</em>, <em>pastes</em>, and <em>pastos</em> may also be pronounced the same [ˈp˭asts]. I'm not sure if this is due to American (English) influence or what. Also /s/ debuccalization doesn't take place as you can see from that last transcription.<br /><br />Also, I believe that in the Romanesco accent of Italian, the alveolar trill (or geminate /r/; whatever you want to call it) doesn't exist. It is replaced with an alveolar tap [ɾ]. That's the opposite of what I was talking about, but oh well.Philnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-82931987774901003602010-10-25T21:40:52.880+01:002010-10-25T21:40:52.880+01:00Mallamb
... British NSs with a smattering of Mara...Mallamb<br /><br /><i>... British NSs with a smattering of Marathi from their Marathi-speaking family ...</i><br /><br />That sounds like me. I just say Bombay. I'd feel ridiculous trying to pronounce Mumbai in English as in Marathi. Yet I don't know what is the right way to anglicise it. It's not like Paris or Hanover where there is an accepted way to pronounce it in English. <i>Mumbai</i> just looks like a transliteration of a Marathi word pronounced in a way that doesn't come naturally to a native English speaker. Any of the alternatives feels uncomfortably like a failed attempt at faux authenticity.Ian Prestonhttp://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctp100/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-17914554902551926302010-10-25T20:09:40.754+01:002010-10-25T20:09:40.754+01:00Simon, I can tell you that [ˈpəʊveɾo] is not Itali...Simon, I can tell you that [ˈpəʊveɾo] is not Italian: the diphthong [əʊ] is not to be found in any variety of Italian. [ˈpɔveɾo], on the other hand, is the Standard pronunciation.<br /><br />NB: The length mark John uses in [ˈpɔːveɾo] is there only to indicate that the [ɔ] sound is longer because it's stressed, although I have to admit that most phonologists in Italy tend to omit it because the length of vowel sounds is not meaningful in Italian.Alex Rotatorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15221253493502707131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-39806796947671947652010-10-25T19:08:39.936+01:002010-10-25T19:08:39.936+01:00I am not sure about the TORCH vowel in [ˈpɔːveɾo]....I am not sure about the TORCH vowel in [ˈpɔːveɾo]. While accepting that it may be the 'approved' pronunciation I would suggest that [ˈpɔveɾo] and [ˈpəʊveɾo] are both more common, (at least in the Milan area where I learnt my Italian some years ago). I have no statistics to back this assertion, however.Simon M Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06879703456056313280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-62782754429641604552010-10-25T19:07:17.813+01:002010-10-25T19:07:17.813+01:00Ian,
I didn't say they do succeed in pronounc...Ian, <br />I didn't say they do succeed in pronouncing Mumbai for Bombay, never mind competently, but "Why should they?" is precisely the question. My standards are not as high as yours, and I think mʊm'baɪ is about as much as we can expect, but once you start expecting this sort of thing at all, chaos will rule. <br /><br />I mentioned Mumbai as less ridiculous in this respect, as I thought most people probably can make a stab at the "English version". But you have drawn my attention to the awful likelihood that British NSs with a smattering of Marathi from their Marathi-speaking family will use the Marathi pronunciation in English, as monoglot English-speaking Pakistanis pronounce Pakistan and Afghanistan in a pastiche North West Frontier accent. If even a native Hannoveraner were to tell us he was from [haˈnoːfɐ], that would not be nearly as ridiculous: it's as if he were to tell us he was from Deutschland.<br /><br />I was contrasting Mumbai with Myanmar, which is a celebrated absurdity which might as well be pronounced as in the strange LPD sound file for BrE [ˈmaɪənmɑː] as any other way represented in the transcriptions which accompany it. None of them resemble what was presumably intended by the Burmese, especially not the rhotic AmE ones.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-63670439934898380192010-10-25T18:22:32.416+01:002010-10-25T18:22:32.416+01:00Steve, some of these musical groups that use the n...Steve, some of these musical groups that use the name I Musici are regularly called ˌiːmuˈziːtʃi also call <i>themselves</i> that. You have reminded me of a recent report that the British Medici String Quartet, having long resisted all efforts to get them to call themselves ˈmeidɪtʃi instead of mɪˈdiːtʃi, had finally caved in and started doing so. I do find it hard to believe, but I'm sure I can't have imagined it. So there is hope even for Radio Four, David.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-81464509896922440582010-10-25T18:01:12.752+01:002010-10-25T18:01:12.752+01:00People may succeed in pronouncing Mumbai for Bomba...<i>People may succeed in pronouncing Mumbai for Bombay ...</i><br /><br />Do they though? It seems to me that people have little idea how Marathi is pronounced (and why should they?) and almost always say <b>mʊm'beɪ</b> or <b>mʊm'baɪ</b> instead of <b>mumbəiː</b>.Ian Prestonhttp://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctp100/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-59264169844467771252010-10-25T16:35:32.466+01:002010-10-25T16:35:32.466+01:00Steve - I know, and sometimes I do this. In this c...Steve - I know, and sometimes I do this. In this case it was just laziness that I didn't.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-77020088468623827992010-10-25T16:28:24.709+01:002010-10-25T16:28:24.709+01:00John Wells said:
> I see from my Dizionario it...John Wells said:<br /><br />> I see from my Dizionario italiano multimediale e <br />> multilingue d’Ortografia e di Pronunzia (blog, <br />> 19 July)<br /><br />Just a hint: when you want to refer to your earlier blog entries, you can give direct links. Just scroll to the bottom of the entry to where it says 'Posted by John Wells at' and the posting time that follows has a hyperlink associated with it that you (and others) can use to link back to that post. In this case it's <a href="http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/2010/07/un-dizionario-enorme.html" rel="nofollow">http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/2010/07/un-dizionario-enorme.html</a>.Steve Doerrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11410868047916610730noreply@blogger.com