tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post2458096839483552456..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: affricatesJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-75667945812327017132010-08-13T15:15:25.926+01:002010-08-13T15:15:25.926+01:00I have found myself wondering and asking about wha...I have found myself wondering and asking about what the real affricates are, if it is correct to put it in this way, because as you said the definition is a little tricky.buy viagrahttp://www.xlpharmacy.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-17389763267410701322010-04-21T02:11:09.298+01:002010-04-21T02:11:09.298+01:00An aside: as a native, monolingual SAE speaker, I ...An aside: as a native, monolingual SAE speaker, I learned the most basic of Japanese phrases and then spent a little over a week in Tokyo. Much to my surprise, even that short bit of exposure seems to have been enough to make a phoneme out of /ts/ for me. I find that I'm now suddenly conscious of the distinction between /s/ and /ts/, where I certainly wasn't before. "Sunami" now sounds very, very wrong to me--I wouldn't have even noticed before. It's a creepy feeling.<br /><br />I'd certainly have to anecdotally argue that /ts/ is most certainly NOT an SAE phoneme. The morphemic boundary explanation for its surface appearance makes a lot of sense. I also don't think you'd find many native SAE speakers claiming that "peanuts" ended in a different sound than "pears," though you could certainly embarrass them by belaboring the point.Travisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-23207987948071708142010-02-09T13:22:35.452+00:002010-02-09T13:22:35.452+00:00Affricates are consonants that are formed by stopp...Affricates are consonants that are formed by stopping the flow of air somewhere in the vocal apparatus and then releasing the air relatively slowly so that the friction sound can be produced.nintendo r4http://www.r4card.com.au/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-37627876122011946052010-02-05T21:43:56.719+00:002010-02-05T21:43:56.719+00:00So how do I display my userpic on here?So how do I display my userpic on here?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-80138700479192808172010-02-05T21:35:44.598+00:002010-02-05T21:35:44.598+00:00The evidence that I'm as hard on the eye as on...The evidence that I'm as hard on the eye as on the mind.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-44005311112671856802010-02-05T20:38:02.671+00:002010-02-05T20:38:02.671+00:00Wow! And a picture too! I've fallen in love! W...Wow! And a picture too! I've fallen in love! What are we going to do? Didn't you foresee this hazard? But never fear, I'm not so easy on the eye as either of you!<br /><br />After one hearing: definitely palatalized.<br />After two: ditto.<br />After 3 4 and 5: dittox3.<br /><br />So by my reckoning хорвацкий is exploded.<br /><br />Fun while it lasted!<br /><br />Another thing that struck me was that she obviously is indeed "an excellent teacher with a clear 'intelligentny' Petersburg accent". You can practically hear the твердый знак<b>ъ</b> at the end of хорват!<br /><br />So you can hear that the much maligned morphology with -ский really does impact on the т. Or is it the spelling? ʕ8-ʃmallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-61989252671996378972010-02-05T19:36:26.339+00:002010-02-05T19:36:26.339+00:00Mallamb
Hows this? хорватскийMallamb<br /><br />Hows this? <a href="http://web.me.com/davidcrosbie/Site/Blog/Entries/2010/2/5_%D1%85%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9.html" rel="nofollow">хорватский</a>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-9824738970951957752010-02-05T15:09:32.684+00:002010-02-05T15:09:32.684+00:00David! What heroism to go back to your wife AND to...David! What heroism to go back to your wife AND to now be fixing to post a sound file!<br /><br />Thanks for the sunflower. I've got it now. The dictionary says (BOT), so presumably she thinks подсолнечник is too technical for this book, but I don't see why she thinks it's a back formation from подсолнечное масло, rather than the latter being a regular derivative, morphologically as well as oleaginously!mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-213893700803060992010-02-05T15:07:32.321+00:002010-02-05T15:07:32.321+00:00No, подсолнечник does exist, even with the meaning...No, подсолнечник does exist, even with the meaning of 'sunflower' (next to 'parasol'), it's just not the default word today.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-88767266643492949772010-02-05T14:57:52.897+00:002010-02-05T14:57:52.897+00:00Mallamb
Lena tells me that подсoлнух is the only ...Mallamb<br /><br />Lena tells me that <b>подсoлнух</b> is the only Russian word for 'sunflower'. Dennis's <b>подсолнечник</b> is presumably a back formation from <b>подсолнечное масло</b> 'sunflower oil'.<br /><br />She used to work with Dennis and knew him well. She describes his Russian as 'quite good'.<br /><br />My ear is not sufficiently trained to judge the presence or absence of palatalisation in the middle of <b>хорватский</b>. I'm trying to set up a blog where I can post a sound file recording of her so that you can judge.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-13157553235317156772010-02-05T14:57:01.066+00:002010-02-05T14:57:01.066+00:00Oh dear, Pavel, I said all that in my post of 12.0...Oh dear, Pavel, I said all that in my post of 12.07.<br /><br />I said "-тся and -ться are pronounced ца", so of course I meant the distinction between -тся and -ться was neutralized. And I suggested the spelling тца to parallel the admirable Belarussian cc, so of course I approved of the idea of a spelling reflecting the compensatory lengthening of the closure phase.<br /><br />Did I really need to say "-тся and -ться are pronounced _with_ ца"? <br /><br />Thanks for mentioning the netspeak -, but that parallels Belarussian spelling a little too closely for comfort! Both cc and цца give a funny impression of the longer closure phase, don't they? We don't really want to imply tsts, and that's why I suggested тца .mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-26605693668754882082010-02-05T14:41:00.162+00:002010-02-05T14:41:00.162+00:00Well Boris, in podsjetiti again you've got the...Well Boris, in podsjetiti again you've got the morpheme boundary, as in David's подсолнечник from Dennis Ward's <i>Russian Pronunciation Illustrated</i>. I'm amazed it even gets spelt "pocjetiti" at all! That speaks even more volumes, it seems to me.<br /><br />I thought I did put hrvacka televizija in inverted commas, but now find I can't replicate that search. I don't remember why I picked that particular combination to search, and can't imagine why it should have fallen foul of the Google software.<br /><br />BTW David, why does your wife say it should be подсoлнух?mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-62829028205718805002010-02-05T14:19:45.061+00:002010-02-05T14:19:45.061+00:00@Mallamb: no, the distinction between -тся and -ть...@Mallamb: no, the distinction between -тся and -ться is neutralized in this position, so -тся/-ться is the Russian equivalent of your/you're. And it is not pronounced as if spelt -ца: the cluster has a much longer closure phase (around the length of a full stop segment). You do find the spelling -цца in netspeak (and Belarusian), but note that it's still doubled.Pavel Iosadhttp://identi.ca/anghyflawnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-62802350789707566692010-02-05T13:57:51.823+00:002010-02-05T13:57:51.823+00:00@Mallamb: Sorry for causing misunderstanding.
I wo...@Mallamb: Sorry for causing misunderstanding.<br />I wouldn't bet my life it's exactly the same sound as in "packa" or similar words (although I'm quite sure it is), but I can say that it's different from English or for example Finnish ts, and even from Croatian "podsjetiti" which is often enough misspelled as "potsjetiti", but almost never "pocjetiti".<br /><br />btw. I find that googling words with quote marks often helps get better results and bypass various autocorrections.Boris Blagojevićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-75670747577486699682010-02-05T13:03:21.093+00:002010-02-05T13:03:21.093+00:00Thanks for that corrective intelligence too. Must ...Thanks for that corrective intelligence too. Must learn to search properly. I had used the minus to eliminate other problems with these searches, but it would never have occurred to me that I needed to use the plus, especially for such an arcane reason. <br /><br />I did wonder at the level of insubordination I thought I had found! Still, 2,760 cases of insubordination is enough to make my point.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-56847767068095795872010-02-05T12:25:48.079+00:002010-02-05T12:25:48.079+00:001,930,000 Croatian pages for hrvacka televizija.
...<em>1,930,000 Croatian pages for hrvacka televizija.</em><br /><br />That's because Google autocorrects <em>hrvacka</em> to... <em>HR</em>, it seems (for whatever reason). When you turn that off by googling <em>+hrvacka televizija</em>, there's only 2,760 pages left.lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10967852565627690025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-56675525118308742402010-02-05T12:07:19.372+00:002010-02-05T12:07:19.372+00:00Just as well I didn't make that post any longe...Just as well I didn't make that post any longer, you might think, but I meant to comment on Pavel's point that the distinction between тс and ц can indeed be blurred, especially before consonants (so Frindt is essentially right), but prevocalically it is a very clear one:<br /><br />Pavel, you say "there are lots of [ts] prevocalic clusters because they pop up before the reflexive suffix -sja."<br /><br />And when they do, is that not another egregiously morphological spelling, since -тся and -ться are pronounced ца? I suppose you think this too obvious to mention! But your point must be that here it is definitely not the sequence т, с. That would be palatalized and the whole point about the pronunciation ца is that it is not! Thus in spite of the spelling, this can only be the affricate.<br /><br />And Pavel, I am so gratified that you tell us that Belarusian just throws morphology out of the window and opts for харвацкій and all the reflexive verbal forms spelt with two <i>c</i>s. Is that a geminated affricate tts? Would you like тца for Great Russian?mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-20444243684146159542010-02-05T11:25:13.712+00:002010-02-05T11:25:13.712+00:00@luke
Thank you. I was going by Boris Blagojević&#...@luke<br />Thank you. I was going by Boris Blagojević's argument:<br /><br /> "…'Hrvatska' too contains that affricate … since it's usually spelled … c-in-angle-brackets".<br /><br />Which I misread because it got garbled by html problems. I regret to say I thought he was saying it was spelt Hrvacka. But obviously he means the affricate ts in Hrvatska is usually spelt c. So yes, хорватский and hrvatski are perfectly cognate, morphologically speaking. But it still seems they both refuse to consistently behave morphologically! For now I see that Boris is telling us emphatically that it is in spite of the spelling that 'Hrvatska' too contains that affricate.<br /><br />But once again, we find that people scorn to spell it in a way that does not visibly contain that affricate, just as they write хорвацкий for хорватский! Googling again:<br /><br />1,930,000 Croatian pages for hrvacka televizija.<br /><br />Etc. etc.<br /><br />I did realize that Russian was rigidly morphological about this, and always spelt –ский, but David's wife's merger with ц made me sit up, and I reported the evidence I had found that she was far from being alone in being, as I thought, in line with this Hrvacka.<br /><br />Dominik Lukeš himself now tell us "As a native speaker of Czech, I could go either way on Chovatský or Chorvacký. Funnily enough, my arguably limited intuition about Russian makes me feel that there the 'ц' would be much more commonplace - mostly because I can't spell Russian properly anymore."<br /><br />And neither can all those Russians on the internet! It's a laugh a minute, isn't it?<br /><br />But this time I am on the qui vive against ignorant misreadings, and I now take him to be talking not about the spelling, but about the pronunciation of Chorvatský as if it were Chorvacký. There are not nearly so many misspellings around in this case. Either Czechs must be better spellers, or there must be less merger and more morphology in Czech!<br /><br />@David<br /><br />"I think I can hear a longer stream of sound when my wife says хорватский." She just says 'Who cares?'<br /><br />Well played! Hang on in there! Dare you ask her again, and listen for palatalization of с or both с and т ? That would eliminate хорвацкий, wouldn't it?<br /><br />My wife was like Mr Polly's, who the moment she was married to him stopped laughing at his jokes. Mine stopped pretending to care about the job as an informant I had assigned her. I guess we've all been informants at one time or another, and it _is_ a terrible experience, isn’t it?<br /><br />So yes, David, it is unsurprising.<br /><br />Dennis Ward's examples are unnecessarily uncontentious, it seems to me.<br /><br />@Lazar<br /><br />Thank you, fellow non-affricator. It is of course necessary to mention the 'affected xenophilic pronunciations for things like "tsar" and "tsunami"'. Pace the OED, I think tsɑː is a gross affectation, whether its t-sɑː (which is what is usually affected by the xenophiles) or tsɑː, when zɑː is so well established, but yes, I have an affricate in tsunami, and I don’t think it's an affectation to abhor sunami!mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-69417569269956050972010-02-05T08:02:13.036+00:002010-02-05T08:02:13.036+00:00Your posts are always so interesting Mr. Wells! I ...Your posts are always so interesting Mr. Wells! I am a fan of your dictionary. As a Spanish speaker (Arg) I've always had trouble with the sequence verb+er= sing+er, verb+ing+in for example, quoting the Beatles...'sing+ing+in the dead of night'. I was told that -ing is more or less like our cinco.<br /><br />At college I was taught RP English, therefore I say 'I can't' as (it won't let me copy and paste IPA here) a RP speaker should, but I'm always catious since I'm afraid I'm making it sound like another word that could be embarassing in public. I should pick the AmEng version of can't /kent/ or /keint/, I guess.<br /><br />Keep up the good work, Mr. Wells!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-57808834822583434782010-02-04T23:45:31.364+00:002010-02-04T23:45:31.364+00:00Mallamb
I think I can hear a longer stream of sou...Mallamb<br /><br />I <i>think</i> I can hear a longer stream of sound when my wife says <b>хорватский</b>. She just says 'Who cares?'<br /><br />This would be unsurprising but for the fact that for some years she taught a Russian Phonetics course to undergraduates. Before you get too excited, this was really a course in phonetic transcription as an aid to better pronunciation.<br /><br />My wife is an excellent teacher with a clear 'intelligentny' Petersburg accent, but she felt the course was doing more harm than good, as students were struggling with <i>two</i> new alphabets. So she abandoned IPA in favour of some system used in Russia with Cyrillic symbols.<br /><br />Dennis Ward also composed <i>Russian Pronunciation Illustrated</i>, in which he offers contrasting uses of <b>ts</b> and <b>t-s</b>.<br /><br /><b>Подсо́лнечник</b> [should be <b>подсо́лнух</b> says Lena] <b>цветёт на со́лнце</b><br />under a picture of a sunflower which is indeed growing under the sun<br /><br />And under a cartoon sketch of two metal workers bashing metal in a factory's 'auxiliary workshop'.<br /><b>Кузнецы́ рабо́тают в подбсо́бном це́хе</b><br /><br />I can't reproduce Ward's pre-Kiel IPA transcription, but you can gather that he makes the sunflower word start with pʌˈt-sоl. The 'auxiliary' word is transcribed pʌˈt-sоbnəm. He transcribes the sound spelled <b>ц</b> as [ts].David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-40288594214835294112010-02-04T23:34:56.190+00:002010-02-04T23:34:56.190+00:00I have a hard time conceiving of [ts] as an affric...I have a hard time conceiving of [ts] as an affricate in English - AFAIK, English speakers find it quite unnatural to use [ts] at the beginning of a syllable, unless they've adopted affected xenophilic pronunciations for things like "tsar" and "tsunami". I fail to see how it's different from any other plosive+fricative sequence, like [ks] or [ps].Lazar Taxonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13221219358689771815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-44601028300839445222010-02-04T22:46:33.143+00:002010-02-04T22:46:33.143+00:00I'd like to offer a few more instances where t...I'd like to offer a few more instances where the 'ts' sequence distinguishes meaning inspired by comments on this blog: ts/s: curtsey/cursey, ts/z: bitsy/busy, itsy/Izzy; and ts/tʃ: bitsy/bitchy, itsy/itchy. <br /><br />Now the questions is? Are they articulatorily and acoustically more like box/boss or rich/ridge. <br /><br />BTW: As a native speaker of Czech, I could go either way on Chovatský or Chorvacký. Funnily enough, my arguably limited intuition about Russian makes me feel that there the 'ц' would be much more commonplace - mostly because I can't spell Russian properly anymore.Dominik Lukešhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03071876778771965740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-39283927612852341382010-02-04T20:22:47.952+00:002010-02-04T20:22:47.952+00:00@Paul (13.42)
In my pronunciation 'ratchet'...@Paul (13.42)<br />In my pronunciation 'ratchet' and 'rat shit' are homophones. In both cases, both /t/s are realised as glottal stops - same applies to hatchet, crotchet.<br />There's a pub in Huddersfield, W. Yorkshire called the Rat and Ratchet.Jonathan Markshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13535530044636147999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-71139750017305293622010-02-04T19:56:38.705+00:002010-02-04T19:56:38.705+00:00Russian has хорват--Croat and хорватский--Croatian...Russian has хорват--Croat and хорватский--Croatian, perfectly cognate with Croatian Hrvat, hrvatski. I don't see your problem, mallamb.lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10967852565627690025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-907149216102327552010-02-04T18:08:02.204+00:002010-02-04T18:08:02.204+00:00Yes I see that, but why? Why should Russian not ha...Yes I see that, but why? Why should Russian not have a form that is more cognate with Croat? Perhaps it does, and Хорватский is an etymologizing spelling, and its standard pronunciation a spelling-pronunciation! Your wife may be saying Хорвацкий out of justifiable contempt for all that! And all the misspellers on the internet writing it for the same reason!mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.com