tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post2984409892852402429..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: animal accentsJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-81559996470220528092020-06-12T10:13:11.460+01:002020-06-12T10:13:11.460+01:00Haloo pak^^
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So yes, we indeed know enough to determine its limits in terms of complexity, not only through observation, but also simply because this complexity needs big brains, which animals lack.<br /><br />Your statement about "non-codified languages" and "oral traditions" is irrelavant. The fact that racist 19th century linguists dismissed the language of the "wild men" as "primitive" has exactly nothing to do with our current knowledge on animal communication.Kilian Hekhuishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01084720179158650652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-77612276163256231062013-02-22T13:02:45.440+00:002013-02-22T13:02:45.440+00:00Did you watch the video Kilian? I was very much in...Did you watch the video Kilian? I was very much in your camp before I did.<br /><br />Somehow I don't see this as an open-shut case. Arguing for something's non-existence is always a matter of induction, and therefore never conclusively provable.<br /><br />Beyond that, we may know much about human language, but what do we know about animal communication? Enough to determine its limits in terms of complexity and structure? Current research seems to suggest that it's a journey we've only just begun.<br /><br />Statements similar to yours were once made about non-codified languages and oral traditions, until linguists studied them and realized that some of them are even more complex than most written languages. Let's not jump to the same conclusions about other species.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02111377362895402246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-21942201251978265272013-02-22T04:06:04.699+00:002013-02-22T04:06:04.699+00:00Hyraxes apparently have identifiable regional dial...Hyraxes apparently have identifiable regional dialects, for what that's worth: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/04/hyrax-song-complexity/Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18025114684763799387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-42840525472401577052013-02-21T19:36:31.148+00:002013-02-21T19:36:31.148+00:00Especially the latter paragraph is such utter rubb...Especially the latter paragraph is such utter rubbish, that I won't even start to comment on it. Let's be very clear to whoever reads this: we have <i>every</i> reason to suppose that humans are the only animals having complex and structured language.Kilian Hekhuishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01084720179158650652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-83715683571692879592013-02-20T09:19:48.110+00:002013-02-20T09:19:48.110+00:00ilgaz pet I think a very bad situation to be corre...<a href="http://www.ilgazpet.com" rel="nofollow">ilgaz pet</a> I think a very bad situation to be corrected for prairie dogsAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12464633100746417043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-76678468635544471942013-02-19T10:05:47.289+00:002013-02-19T10:05:47.289+00:00This study at Northern Arizona University appears ...This study at Northern Arizona University appears to suggest that prairie dogs do indeed have languages that are complex, dialectically diverse and productive. <br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=y1kXCh496U0&feature=endscreen<br /><br />Note that the study focuses on warning calls because they are easily recorded responses to stimulae that we can also see, implying that there may well be much more to praire dog language. In other words, how could we possibly listen in on prairie dog pillow-talk, let alone hope to decode something so potentially complex? The phonetic distinctions are also mainly imperceptible to the human ear, only visible through spectrum analysis.<br /><br />All this goes to show that no one knows the answer to this question - we have no reason to doubt, and much reason to suppose, that the animal world holds languages even more complex than ours.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02111377362895402246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-54746251023756438452013-02-17T20:10:42.329+00:002013-02-17T20:10:42.329+00:00Hi, sorry, I must have either overlooked or forgot...Hi, sorry, I must have either overlooked or forgot(ten) the part of John's posting above where he says the book would have to be for *children*... I imagined it was meant for general audience... Sorry for my scandalous lack of attention. I even wondered why you mentioned bright eight year olds.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-90431251828925771502013-02-17T18:25:45.804+00:002013-02-17T18:25:45.804+00:00Wojciech
This is self-evident and has a penumbra ...Wojciech<br /><br /><i>This is self-evident and has a penumbra of mocking the reader.</i><br /><br />I couldn't disagree more.<br /><br />It invites the kids to think how ridiculous it is to imagine a dog <b>speaking</b> in the literal sense of the word. The point is that is has to be that sort of 'speaking', not the figurative sort, if it can be said to have an accent.<br />David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-75192462420638609722013-02-17T18:17:58.574+00:002013-02-17T18:17:58.574+00:00I'd (I insist) leave out the 'we can't...I'd (I insist) leave out the 'we can't ask if anybody phoned' part. This is self-evident and has a penumbra of mocking the reader.<br /><br />Although ... there once was a film 'Ratatouille' featuring a rat that could cook well (it was a animated film, not with real rats) after which many children reportedly asked their parents to get them rats as pets, in the hope that they (the rats) could cook just as well or even better than their parents... so there is probably not a thing as self-evident as not to deserve being said to everybody (if this is a correct 'say to someone' syntax...) once in a while.<br />Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-14628830291318103562013-02-17T12:26:53.237+00:002013-02-17T12:26:53.237+00:00The exchange between Wojciech and me suggests a fu...The exchange between Wojciech and me suggests a further tweak to the explanation. Something to this effect:<br /><br />[Sheep dogs understand instructions] <br /><br /><b>including some words. <br />And they seem to let us know what they want and how they feel. But they can't use words.</b> <br /><br />[We can't ask if anybody phoned.]David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-45968797592603770692013-02-17T12:17:40.054+00:002013-02-17T12:17:40.054+00:00Wojciech
If you say 'Animals don't talk a...Wojciech<br /><br />If you say <i>'Animals don't talk about answering phone calls'</i>, it's uncontroversial and (if you pitch it right) funny. If you say <i>'Animals don't speak'</i>, a very large number of listeners will disagree because <i>speak</i> is so often used figuratively — and it's not remotely funny.<br /><br />We frequently refer to the most unlikely entities as <b>speaking to us</b>. It's not just pets but any animal to which we can anthropomorphically assign a <b>message</b>. Plus any work of art, or even feature of nature which inspires emotion.<br /><br />In short, anything which provokes a response which we choose to express in words can be said to <b>speak to us, to say something to us, to convey a message</b>.<br /><br />'<i>My dog doesn't speak to me</i>' would be taken by most English hearers to mean that the dog ignores the speaker — doesn't bark at, lick, touch or even look at its master/mistress.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-72037418315372949742013-02-16T11:43:50.316+00:002013-02-16T11:43:50.316+00:00Ad David
But afaik dogs CANNOT answer calls, at l...Ad David<br /><br />But afaik dogs CANNOT answer calls, at least Polish dogs, British---I dunno. Can they choose, nonetheless, whether to answer them or not? Well, if THEY themselves wrongly imagine that they could if they chose to, someone should tell them in their canine language that they can't... . I am obviously not quite with you any longer...<br /><br />But target audience ... yes you may be right. I remember an English friend (D. Phil. Cantab.) telling me that many (or was it 'most'?) Britons are very poorly educated, as regards factual knowledge at least, and had wildest, most inaccurate ideas from zoology, astronomy, history, geography... Maybe he was pulling my leg, but if not, there may be some use in telling people that dogs can't take phones etc... I personally would feel somewhat _auf den Arm genommen_ as the German says, not treated seriously, by such explanations.<br />Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-66688048657494662542013-02-16T01:59:02.105+00:002013-02-16T01:59:02.105+00:00Wojciech
anyway, for me, 'animals can't s...Wojciech<br /><br /><i>anyway, for me, 'animals can't speak to us' would be enough.</i><br /><br />But not, I think, for John's target audience. I suspect more pet owners agree than disagree with the proposition that their pets speak to them. I have a clearer sense of the term <b>speak</b> than that, but I have little doubt pets communicate with us. Why should <i>bright and curious eight-year-olds</i> have such a precise understanding of <i>speak</i>.<br /><br />What matters for John's argument is that communication between pets and pet-owners doesn't run to the exchange of information, of which a question-and-answer exchange is the prototypical form.<br /><br />The reduced-to-absurd example serves to explain what John means by <i>speak</i>.<br /><br />It's <b>because</b> eight-year olds understand that dog's might choose whether or not to answer the telephone that they're ready to grasp the point that can't produce complex language, even if they can (in part) understand and respond to it.<br />David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-74348389348205308942013-02-15T07:10:17.158+00:002013-02-15T07:10:17.158+00:00Ad John:
'As you will know if you’ve ever wat...Ad John:<br /><br />'As you will know if you’ve ever watched sheepdog trials, we can teach dogs to understand quite complicated spoken instructions. But they can’t speak to us. If you’ve been out, leaving your dog in the house, you can’t ask him when you get back, “Did anyone phone while I was out?”, and he can’t tell you “The phone did ring, but I didn’t answer it. And someone knocked at the door, too.'<br /><br />I wonder if the part from 'If you've been out' onwards in the above is really necessary. On me it makes the impression of, I dunnno, semi-jocular (perhaps) condescension towards those cognition-impaired who labour under the misrepresentation that dogs CAN take phone calls and what not ... anyway, for me, 'animals can't speak to us' would be enough.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-89469299748911565032013-02-12T20:54:41.826+00:002013-02-12T20:54:41.826+00:00I heard the cow accent thing repeated on the radio...I heard the cow accent thing repeated on the radio at the weekend in an interview with Stephen Fry about QI. It was presented as one of the most interesting QI 'facts'. I wonder how many others are nonsense?Ant Healdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15367818005826093179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-77137148469461949532013-02-12T10:39:35.651+00:002013-02-12T10:39:35.651+00:00On health update: Best wishes John, I hope you rec...On health update: Best wishes John, I hope you recover soon!Kilian Hekhuishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01084720179158650652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-70761209425183993982013-02-10T13:12:10.665+00:002013-02-10T13:12:10.665+00:00Thanks Piotr!Thanks Piotr!David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-90721261726371295992013-02-09T21:53:51.468+00:002013-02-09T21:53:51.468+00:00It would be enlightening to know if whales are in ...<i>It would be enlightening to know if whales are in any way inhibited in interaction with wales from other oceans with other repertoires of sound. Does anyone know of any research on this?</i><br /><br />There's quite lot of ongoing "sociolinguistic" research on orcas. The species includes several ecotypes characterised by quite different lifestyles. The so-called resident orcas live in complex societies. At the bottom of the structure there are small family groups ("matrilines"). Several matrilines form a "pod", several pods form a "clan", and several clans, a "community". Every pod has a distinct dialect. The dialects of different pods in the same clan share some vocalisation features, but there is no such similarity between dialects of pods belonging to different clans. Males usually mate with females from the same clan, but a different pod. Pods may "socialise" between clans, but always within the same community. The similarity (or "mutual comprehensibility") of dialects seems to be very important in maintaining social cohesion. Members of different communities apparently don't get on well with each other. They have never been observed to travel together.<br /><br />See http://northenresidentorcas.blogspot.com/Piotr Gąsiorowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06339278493073512102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-47461318745653834772013-02-09T17:51:28.723+00:002013-02-09T17:51:28.723+00:00Thanks for this. I'll think about incorporatin...Thanks for this. I'll think about incorporating it.<br />John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-7779152856170013042013-02-09T14:25:52.996+00:002013-02-09T14:25:52.996+00:00But domestic cows and sheep are different. Where t...<i>But domestic cows and sheep are different. Where they grow up and live is decided by the human beings that own them. </i><br /><br />This is the only bit I'm not happy with. Human slaves developed different varieties in the different regions where slave owners decided that they should live. <br /><br />It's who you talk to and/or choose to talk to that makes an accent. Place is often a necessary but not sufficient condition. Sometimes it's not even a necessary condition.<br /><br />In terms that the target audience might appreciate:<br /><br />It's possible that from the Atlantic whales might not get on with Pacific whales because of the sounds they make. As far as we know, Somerset sheep get on perfectly well with Yorkshire sheep.<br /><br />It would be enlightening to know if whales are in any way inhibited in interaction with wales from other oceans with other repertoires of sound. Does anyone know of any research on this?David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-60756063239013010262013-02-09T08:55:56.164+00:002013-02-09T08:55:56.164+00:00That depends on what you call "technical"...That depends on what you call "technical" of course. The "real" technical term is "Cetacea", which is split between "Mysticeti" (baleen whales) and "Odontoceti" (toothed whales). The latter is in turn subdivided in several families, of which Delphinidae are the dolphins, which include the common bottlenose dolphin, but also the killer whale.Kilian Hekhuishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01084720179158650652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-1198300295271911202013-02-08T22:47:40.124+00:002013-02-08T22:47:40.124+00:00Well, the general technical term is "cetacean...Well, the general technical term is "cetaceans". Killer whale dialects have been extensively studied, but it seems that many other cetaceans (narwhals, blue whales, humpbacks) also have their own.Piotr Gąsiorowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06339278493073512102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-39171125301786532182013-02-08T15:17:19.336+00:002013-02-08T15:17:19.336+00:00Really? Do people consider them the same?Really? Do people consider them the same?Kilian Hekhuishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01084720179158650652noreply@blogger.com