tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post3060847375677571166..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: cookie monsterJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-7700363276122446132010-11-02T15:44:13.416+00:002010-11-02T15:44:13.416+00:00Funny that most (non-ZAF) anglophones pronounce Bo...Funny that most (non-ZAF) anglophones pronounce Boer with FORCE but Bloemfontein with GOOSE.mollymoolynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-47598290165005083242010-10-14T09:06:00.661+01:002010-10-14T09:06:00.661+01:00@sili:
Or as Delboy in Only Fools and Horses once ...@sili:<br />Or as Delboy in Only Fools and Horses once said: 'There's none so blind as them as what won't listen'...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-14551140542459136902010-10-13T11:19:39.713+01:002010-10-13T11:19:39.713+01:00Sorry, didn't want to look wisecracking. I sug...Sorry, didn't want to look wisecracking. I suggested <i>shoes</i> because there you have a closed syllable, and what's attached is just a morpheme, not the second part of an actual compound.<br /><br />Anyway, <i>Hoegaarden</i> is a compound just as <i>shoelace</i> (or an imaginary British store "Shoegarden"), though not as transparently to tha average English speaking patron, of course.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-32571741932117330672010-10-13T00:31:56.571+01:002010-10-13T00:31:56.571+01:00Lipman
I should have said which isn't basical...Lipman<br /><br />I should have said <i>which isn't <b>basically</b> word-final</i>. I'd already conceded <i>shoelace</i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-42083155042230117282010-10-12T15:00:26.590+01:002010-10-12T15:00:26.590+01:00Shoes.Shoes.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-88119362659163565742010-10-12T14:32:53.910+01:002010-10-12T14:32:53.910+01:00It’s like in English shoe and canoe!
But it isn&...<i>It’s like in English <b>shoe</b> and <b>canoe!</b></i><br /> <br />But it isn't. The <b>oe</b> isn't at the end of a word. Nor is it a compound based on such a word — not like <i>shoelace</i>, for example. Even if there were an anglicism <i>koekie</i>, we wouldn't read it as <i>Koe+kie</i>.<br /><br />Now if you can find an example of <b>oe</b> pronounced <b>u:</b> which isn't word-final ...David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-26107354751335073812010-10-11T20:38:25.959+01:002010-10-11T20:38:25.959+01:00"It’s like in English shoe and canoe!"
..."It’s like in English shoe and canoe!"<br /><br />...<br /><br />*facepalm*<br /><br />I can not believe I never noticed that. I've been so hung up on French /œ/ and Danish respelt /ø/, that /u/ for <oe> was filed as solidly Dutch in my little mind. None so blind as those who will not see ...Jens Knudsen (Sili)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14078875730565068352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-37331639005633629742010-10-11T20:30:11.055+01:002010-10-11T20:30:11.055+01:00Try asking for ˈhuːˌɣɑːrdə in an English pub, and ...Try asking for <b>ˈhuːˌɣɑːrdə</b> in an English pub, and you'll get some funny looks. Mind you, I once asked for a <b>ˈbuːtˌvaizɐ</b> in the States and had to repeat myself.Steve Doerrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11410868047916610730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-17693572399618627182010-10-11T20:18:35.832+01:002010-10-11T20:18:35.832+01:00The pronunciation of Sneijder as 'Schneider...The pronunciation of Sneijder as 'Schneider' is especially regrettable considering Dutch doesn't have the sound /ʃ/ in native words.Jongseonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12558136756392729306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-25518125316684366422010-10-11T18:09:12.096+01:002010-10-11T18:09:12.096+01:00During the FIFA World Cup this year, one of the mo...During the FIFA World Cup this year, one of the more prominent players was Wesley Sneijder of The Netherlands. I believe that the Dutch pronunciation of his name could be closeley approximated in English as /sneId@(r)/. However, English-speaking commentators universally pronounced his name as though he were a German named Schneider.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-31876061607773416832010-10-11T17:02:01.531+01:002010-10-11T17:02:01.531+01:00Harry
The Belgian beer Hoegaarden has been widely...Harry<br /><br /><i>The Belgian beer Hoegaarden has been widely available in Britain for quite some years now and has established a British pronunciation of ˈhəʊgɑdən </i><br /><br />This came as news to me, Harry, since. I don't drink the stuff, and neither do the people I drink with.<br /><br />The Dutch word with <b>oe</b> spelling that everybody knows is <i>Boer</i>. For me, this is homophonous with <i>bore</i>, <i>boor</i> and <i>boar</i> — except when I'm talking about present-day South Africa. The associated sausage I tend to call <b>'bʊrəvɔ:s</b>. I haven't heard anybody outside South Africa attempting the word.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-18491436929515544962010-10-11T16:07:08.050+01:002010-10-11T16:07:08.050+01:00It's exactly what I thought when I heard the p...<i>It's exactly what I thought when I heard the programme for the first time last Monday.</i><br /><br />Well, not <b>exactly</b> exactly. I can't claim to have thought it through in any detail, but it was very soon obvious that Arthur's pronunciation had been deliberately perverse.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-25343514531844002952010-10-11T12:51:30.834+01:002010-10-11T12:51:30.834+01:00Harry
My explanation is not exactly 'post hoc...Harry<br /><br />My explanation is not exactly 'post hoc'. It's exactly what I thought when I heard the programme for the first time last Monday.<br /><br />Of course nobody cares what the correct pronunciation is. That's why Arthur Smith was able to get away with his ploy.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-10501533000390762512010-10-11T12:37:56.718+01:002010-10-11T12:37:56.718+01:00(Ah, the curse of vanishing angle brackets, trying...(Ah, the curse of vanishing angle brackets, trying again with quotes)<br />...that "oe" -> u: pronunciation...Harry Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01675794936870568336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-15310801983630389162010-10-11T12:36:11.352+01:002010-10-11T12:36:11.352+01:00David Crosbie's explanation is ingeniously pos...David Crosbie's explanation is ingeniously post-hoc and perhaps excessively charitable in assuming anyone cares, let alone knows. Very few people in Britain have the first clue how anything more exotic than French or German is pronounced and so far from being embarrassed, often show a kind of pride in their ignorance. It's the fault of foreigners for talking so strangely. <br /><br />Particularly that -> u: pronunciation is counter-intuitive. The Belgian beer Hoegaarden has been widely available in Britain for quite some years now and has established a British pronunciation of ˈhəʊgɑdən with slightly bizarre horticultural connotations. <br /><br />This is particularly disappointing in the otherwise very sound David Mitchell, who with his rehearsed script had no excuses at all for not bothering. But when do we ever get through an episode of University Challenge or any radio quiz pogramme without a raft of mangled pronunciations. In the past I've even emailed to protest at what I see as a complete lack of professionalism, and the answer comes back loud and clear (though not in so many words of course) WE DON'T CARE, GET A LIFE.Harry Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01675794936870568336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-5291049946211271812010-10-11T11:43:34.963+01:002010-10-11T11:43:34.963+01:00I think you've missed the point of the game, ...I think you've missed the point of the game, John. Contestants to win marks for themselves and deny them to others by making the correct sound implausible.<br /><br /><i>in Dutch this is actually pronounced ˈkukjə, making it a very plausible source for the English word.</i><br /><br />Exactly! This is precisely the truth that Arthur Smith wanted to obscure. To pronounce <i>koekje</i> correctly would have been very, very stupid. <br /><br />The mangled pronunciation was even more vital in this particular context. Arthur needed to associate it closely with the grotesquely parody of a Dutch word that followed. Picking up on a motif unique to this episode, he said in advance that this last point would be untrue. It was important to make it come across as a single untruth, not a truth followed by a lie.<br /><br />David Mitchell may have been reading Dutch as if it was German. He may even have known the correct Dutch pronunciation without thinking that it was helpful to use it. There are points in the game where David reads out dictionary definitions in a <i>Here is a quotation</i> voice. He could have done this with <i>koekje</i> using a correct pronunciation. But that would have sounded so unlike what Arthur had said that listeners might have missed the point.<br /><br />Correctness isn't always appropriate.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-61178715643831723812010-10-11T10:01:14.699+01:002010-10-11T10:01:14.699+01:00Thanks a lot. I'll have a try at it.Thanks a lot. I'll have a try at it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-7448638681060942052010-10-11T09:22:11.287+01:002010-10-11T09:22:11.287+01:00@ Anon: Beverley Collins and Inger Mees, The Phone...@ Anon: Beverley Collins and Inger Mees, <i>The Phonetics of English and Dutch</i>, Brill, 2003.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-45707602140554507362010-10-11T09:14:43.891+01:002010-10-11T09:14:43.891+01:00Could you suggest a good handbook on Dutch phoneti...Could you suggest a good handbook on Dutch phonetics for non-Dutch speakers? ThanksAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-52121942305935741442010-10-11T09:00:51.049+01:002010-10-11T09:00:51.049+01:00I'm not sure which is more shocking: the parti...I'm not sure which is more shocking: the participants' ignorance of Dutch phonetics or that anyone could find 'The Unbelievable Truth' even remotely entertaining.Simon M Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06879703456056313280noreply@blogger.com