tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post3665666062396148540..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: Geordie royaltyJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-90896438379583384942020-08-07T15:18:37.842+01:002020-08-07T15:18:37.842+01:00I will be looking forward to your next post. Thank...I will be looking forward to your next post. Thank you<br />อัพเดทข่าวหวยตามกระแส >>> <a href="https://bit.ly/31tMs5x" rel="nofollow">ทำนายฝัน ฝันเห็นจระเข้ คำทำนายฝัน พร้อม เลขมงคล<br /></a>หวยเด็ดหวยดังhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00775330601075440427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-53124544561578774782020-08-06T13:39:27.169+01:002020-08-06T13:39:27.169+01:00เจาะลึกประเด็นเด็ด ดราม่าข่าวกีฬาลูกหนัง โซลชา บ...เจาะลึกประเด็นเด็ด ดราม่าข่าวกีฬาลูกหนัง <a href="https://manu01122.blogspot.com/2020/08/blog-post_5.html" rel="nofollow"> โซลชา บอกเป็นนัย สมอลลิ่ง ว่า</a>มโน เอาเองhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07048743272464383784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-31530034846955480072016-09-30T16:44:43.686+01:002016-09-30T16:44:43.686+01:00As a native speaker from Teesside I can definitely...As a native speaker from Teesside I can definitely say this is not teesside it does sound very geordie however. Teessiders would never say hinny (what even does that mean) nor would we say "hoose" it's just house, like it's spelt!! "curl" and "hurl" a way off those are absolutely geordie. We would pronounce it "Cole" & "hole". The word "hoy" which means throw is included in teesside dialect perhaps this particular word is common throughout the North East. <br />Although Middlesbrough is located within the Northeast region, the accent takes more influence from the Cleveland dialect of North Yorkshire than it does from further north. Middlesbrough was formally part of the county of the north riding of Yorkshire prior to 1968 so technically speakers from this time had north yorkshire accents. Teesside being an industrial/urban area attracted many people from all over British Isles. During the late 19th century Middlesbrough had the second highest proportion of Irish in England after Liverpool. It also had substantial Welsh, Scottish, cornish and East anglian speakers. The large influx of Irish and Welsh makes Middlesbrough unique in the north east as there are traits of scouse that can be heard for example:<br />Work sounds like werk, purple sounds like perple, dirty sounds like derty, nurse sounds like nerse. Also there is a noticeable harsh "Ck" sound within certain words such as black, track, attack, snack where there is emphasis on the "Ck" giving it that kind of clearing your throat sound heard in Liverpool and Wales.Boro Yorkiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403026874411351456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-63985939987041423872016-09-30T16:44:18.265+01:002016-09-30T16:44:18.265+01:00As a native speaker from Teesside I can definitely...As a native speaker from Teesside I can definitely say this is not teesside it does sound very geordie however. Teessiders would never say hinny (what even does that mean) nor would we say "hoose" it's just house, like it's spelt!! "curl" and "hurl" a way off those are absolutely geordie. We would pronounce it "Cole" & "hole". The word "hoy" which means throw is included in teesside dialect perhaps this particular word is common throughout the North East. <br />Although Middlesbrough is located within the Northeast region, the accent takes more influence from the Cleveland dialect of North Yorkshire than it does from further north. Middlesbrough was formally part of the county of the north riding of Yorkshire prior to 1968 so technically speakers from this time had north yorkshire accents. Teesside being an industrial/urban area attracted many people from all over British Isles. During the late 19th century Middlesbrough had the second highest proportion of Irish in England after Liverpool. It also had substantial Welsh, Scottish, cornish and East anglian speakers. The large influx of Irish and Welsh makes Middlesbrough unique in the north east as there are traits of scouse that can be heard for example:<br />Work sounds like werk, purple sounds like perple, dirty sounds like derty, nurse sounds like nerse. Also there is a noticeable harsh "Ck" sound within certain words such as black, track, attack, snack where there is emphasis on the "Ck" giving it that kind of clearing your throat sound heard in Liverpool and Wales.Boro Yorkiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403026874411351456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-86134302429500097632016-09-30T10:48:55.366+01:002016-09-30T10:48:55.366+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Boro Yorkiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403026874411351456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-74490370653003131542016-09-30T10:43:51.859+01:002016-09-30T10:43:51.859+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Boro Yorkiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18403026874411351456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-68598206089449606332010-12-06T15:32:38.662+00:002010-12-06T15:32:38.662+00:00Phil: I have no idea; I'm not even positive e...Phil: I have no idea; I'm not even positive exactly where I saw it. I'd guess it was in the 4th edition of Mencken's book <i>The American Language</i>, which is post-1922 and so not on line, though the 2nd edition is.<br /><br />Jerry Friedman: With <i>Iran, Iraq, Nazi</i> one has to allow for deliberate distortion out of contempt: <i>Eye-rack</i> parallels the much older <i>Eye-talian</i>. I agree that I've never heard TRAP in <i>Slav</i>, but I didn't want to discount the possibility in advance.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-25649647882076771382010-12-05T17:55:29.016+00:002010-12-05T17:55:29.016+00:00David, it's also one of those things that are ...David, it's also one of those things that are shared by Swabian Gemand and Irish English, in addition to rhoticity.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-41171050062854872352010-12-05T15:04:22.384+00:002010-12-05T15:04:22.384+00:00@ Jerry Friedman: "...but Nazi is definitely ...@ Jerry Friedman: "...but Nazi is definitely in the PALM class here in New Mexico and everywhere I've ever been." But not in the movie <em>Inglourious Basterds</em>.Philnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-33828705198418265562010-12-05T06:34:36.121+00:002010-12-05T06:34:36.121+00:00@John Cowan: I won't argue about Iraq and Iran...@John Cowan: I won't argue about <i>Iraq</i> and <i>Iran</i>, but <i>Nazi</i> is definitely in the PALM class here in New Mexico and everywhere I've ever been. I can't be as definite about <i>Slav</i> since it's much less common, but I've only ever heard it it with the PALM vowel.<br /><br />But then <i>palm</i> has the THOUGHT vowel for a fair number of Americans. That's how I grew up saying it (in Cleveland).Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01732684010036577968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-9818968649822437902010-12-04T22:38:22.836+00:002010-12-04T22:38:22.836+00:00ɛɪ
Isn't that characteristic of some African-...<i><b>ɛɪ</b></i><br /><br />Isn't that characteristic of some African-American accents?<br /><br /><i>low-accent-high-level-tail declarative intonation pattern</i><br /><br />So it's not just Swiss German! :-)<br /><br /><i>Boston</i><br /><br />Reportedly [ˈbastn̩].David Marjanovićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-41149063605368775132010-12-04T20:53:23.071+00:002010-12-04T20:53:23.071+00:00@ John Cowan: I looked that quote up and couldn...@ John Cowan: I looked that quote up and couldn't find it anywhere. Who said that?Philnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-51495793331644187632010-12-04T10:06:04.888+00:002010-12-04T10:06:04.888+00:00Ed: the vowel looks right to me. You may have a fo...Ed: the vowel looks right to me. You may have a font problem on your side.<br /><br />The foreign words <i>Slav, Iraq, Nazi, Iran</i> often have the PALM vowel in North America, but less so as you go westward; I have PALM in all of them. It's not clear to me whether they really belong in the artificial BATH set.<br /><br />In Eastern New England, PALM = BATH = /a/ and TRAP = /æ/; elsewhere in N.A., PALM = /ɑ/ and TRAP = BATH = /æ/. "Our <i>grass</i>", said a Bostonian many years ago, "is halfway between the <i>grahs</i> of an English lawn and the <i>grass</i> of the boundless prairies", and this is very nearly the phonetic truth.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-22786417088447240752010-12-03T13:16:16.577+00:002010-12-03T13:16:16.577+00:00@ ella: I'm American and honestly I don't ...@ ella: I'm American and honestly I don't have much trouble at all understanding Cheryl's accent. I'll admit it sounds very different from mine, but it's quite lovely. The thing with a lot of Americans is (and this really annoys me too) they tend to exaggerate when they talk about how hard it is to understand someone with a different accent from them. They'll say things like, "I couldn't understand that man at all." However, this is really their way of saying, "He sounds very different from me, but I can still understand him fairly well." I suppose it's a type of hyperbole and maybe it's more common in America.Philnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-76401024058222369142010-12-03T02:07:11.073+00:002010-12-03T02:07:11.073+00:00@ella:
Is there any evidence that Americans are a...@ella:<br /><br />Is there any evidence that Americans are any less capable than others of understanding unfamiliar accents?vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-76243076377083196432010-12-02T23:24:40.861+00:002010-12-02T23:24:40.861+00:00ooh, dear, I don't think our Cheryl would do w...ooh, dear, I don't think our Cheryl would do well in the big bad United States. Unless she wanted to get a holiday from being famous for a little while. Apart from anything else Girls Aloud never made it onto the radio in North America, so nobody would know who she is. And Americans are so ridiculously incapable of decoding non-American accents, it's astonishing. She'd have to learn to speak completely differently.ellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13036209994244477176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-78594718951888516922010-12-02T22:28:34.416+00:002010-12-02T22:28:34.416+00:00@ JHJ: I am the same as you for these words except...@ JHJ: I am the same as you for these words except "morale", for which I use a nasalised vowel.<br /><br />I think that it is more of an age split with words such as "master", "Nazi", etc. I recall hearing an older Northerner talk about /mɑːstəʃɛf/ and a younger one saying, "Do you mean /mastəʃɛf/?" as if she were correcting him. <br /><br />"Master" had a broad vowel in older dialect (spelt "maister" in Wuthering Heights) and "Nazi" has a broad vowel in German, so that explains them for older Northerners. I feel that the move to a short /a/ in these words reflects a dislike of the /ɑ:/ in BATH.Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04081841460525341333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-36824667774816277832010-12-02T19:25:10.819+00:002010-12-02T19:25:10.819+00:00@vp: I have TRAP in Iraq, corral, morale, Iran, Su...@vp: I have TRAP in <i>Iraq, corral, morale, Iran, Sudan</i>, PALM in the others except sometimes in <i>half</i>.<br /><br />In Sheffield, <i>master</i> (and probably <i>plaster</i> too, but not other BATH words) is quite commonly heard with PALM. It actually seems to me (though I haven't got any data or anything) that this pronunciation is used mainly by people who have quite definite local accents, while near-RP speakers like me use TRAP.JHJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03257258313943639485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-20253934841109086182010-12-02T19:10:49.434+00:002010-12-02T19:10:49.434+00:00The lexical sets (including PALM, BATH, etc.) are ...The lexical sets (including PALM, BATH, etc.) are defined according to two accents and two accents only: RP and what JW calls "GenAm". The speech of Northern England isn't privileged in defining the lexical sets. Is that unfair? Perhaps, but JW has to draw the line somewhere or else he would have ended up with an unmanageably large number of lexical sets.<br /><br />So a word like "half", which has the same vowel as TRAP in (the vast majority of) North America, is properly classified as BATH, not PALM.<br /><br />Within the BATH set there are certain words that tend to go with PALM rather than TRAP in Northern England. These are listed in section 59(c) on p. 135 of my copy of Accents of English (i). The words are:<br /><br />calf, half, calve, halve, rather, Slav, shan't, can't, Iraq, corral, morale, Iran, Sudan, banana.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-80699247066537136552010-12-02T17:38:59.790+00:002010-12-02T17:38:59.790+00:00@ Pete: Are you North American? Because the phone...@ Pete: Are you North American? Because the phonetic quality of the TRAP/BATH vowel in northern England is a fully open vowel [a] or maybe even approaching a central vowel [a̠] which is quite different from most North American accents. When I first heard northern English accents my American ears heard PALM in BATH words too, because the phonetic quality used there is so different from mine. If you're not North American just ignore this.Philnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-86011217539551036732010-12-02T15:00:02.232+00:002010-12-02T15:00:02.232+00:00I have lived in Yorkshire for 25 years and must sa...I have lived in Yorkshire for 25 years and must say that I have never met any born-and-bred Northerners who use /ɑ:/ regularly in BATH. I agree with Upton's incorporation of /a/ into RP since the number of RP-speakers in the north would be neglible otherwise. I think that some people mistake occasional /ɑ:/ pronunciations for consistent use. For example, words like "master" and "Nazi" are more likely to take /ɑ:/ in the North than other BATH words are.<br /><br />It is quite surprising how strongly some people can feel about the BATH vowel. I have known non-native speakers be corrected sternly for pronouncing Castleford as /kɑ:slfəd/.<br /><br />(I typed the above using the keyboard John Cowan suggested and it's still not worked. The ɑ: should be the broad south-eastern BATH)<br /><br />@ Warren Maguire: that's very interesting. Middlesbrough is very different from rural, conservative North Yorkshire, so it doesn't surprise me about the identity switch. It would be interesting to do survey at towns down the east coast (Whitby, Scarborough, Bridlington, Hornsea) to see whether they have the same features that Middlesbrough shares with Hull or not.Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04081841460525341333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-28525388576196491752010-12-02T14:53:24.392+00:002010-12-02T14:53:24.392+00:00@Warren: I'm definitely talking about words li...@Warren: I'm definitely talking about words like 'class' and 'path', which have a TRAP vowel in most of Northern England (and America, as John Cowan suggests). And I mean proper Geordies with proper (upper) working-class Geordie accents. I'll try & find some examples...Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13722482936100504510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-7941564927236567002010-12-02T14:11:08.687+00:002010-12-02T14:11:08.687+00:00I believe the standard for whether a word is BATH ...I believe the standard for whether a word is BATH is whether American accents other than Eastern New England use their TRAP vowel in it. This is definitely true of all of <i>banana, calf, half, master, plaster, can't</i>. <i>Shan't</i> has been obsolete in AmE for a long time, though Mark Twain used it, so there is no native pronunciation any more, though the major American dictionaries list the artificial pronunciations /ʃænt/ and /ʃɑnt/. (NID3 gives a variety of indecipherable pronunciations of the vowel, including a-with-dot-above, which is not even listed in their pronunciation key.)<br /><br />Ed: By googling for "IPA keyboard" and clicking on the <a href="http://weston.ruter.net/projects/ipa-chart/view/keyboard/" rel="nofollow">first link</a>, you get a very nice clickable IPA chart.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-40963810688204651812010-12-02T14:10:07.624+00:002010-12-02T14:10:07.624+00:00@Ed: and Liverpool. The seeming similarities betwe...@Ed: and Liverpool. The seeming similarities between these three cities have been noted before, but I'm not sure that they've been explored in detail.<br /><br />Carmen Llamas's research shows that there has been something of a realignment, in terms of identity and accent, in Middlesbrough, from Yorkshire oriented to Tyneside (or northeast England more generally). But not so much that young Teesiders now sound just like Geordies (or indeed think of themselves as such; indeed quite the opposite).<br /><br />The DRESS vowel in lettER seems like it might be quite common in northeast England to me; although a TRAP-like vowel is found in Tyneside, a DRESS-like vowel is not uncommon too.Warren Maguirenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-54973567913018961152010-12-02T13:35:27.255+00:002010-12-02T13:35:27.255+00:00@ Warren Maguire: It's interesting that all th...@ Warren Maguire: It's interesting that all those features are also found in Hull. I think that the Middlesbrough accent is more like Hull than Geordie, but it gets associated more with Geordie since that is a better-known accent.<br /><br />One possible difference is that Hull-dwellers often use their DRESS vowel for a schwa at the end of a word (lettER, CURE, NEAR, etc.). (IPA not working on this computer, sorry)Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04081841460525341333noreply@blogger.com