tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post3806419974003057819..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: uilleann pipesJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-47820835181812921032019-08-21T14:15:56.173+01:002019-08-21T14:15:56.173+01:00Nice to read your article! I am looking forward to...Nice to read your article! I am looking forward to sharing your adventures and experiences.<br /><a href="https://bab9.com/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AD%D8%B1%D9%88%D9%81-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%AC%D9%84%D9%8A%D8%B2%D9%8A%D8%A9" rel="nofollow">االحروف الانجليزيه</a><br />atif xhaikhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02930570824595079707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-38959211596360258862011-11-13T16:47:40.111+00:002011-11-13T16:47:40.111+00:00I've heard it with an initial i sound, and I&#...I've heard it with an initial i sound, and I'm not sure I've ever heard it with something resembling a u sound, or even a "wi"-like initial vowel. (No IPA for me, because I'm hopeless with the vowel distinctions, and when I start trying to distinguish, I start altering what I'm saying...) I'm pretty sure I've heard the second vowel as both "e" and "ye", though I don't recall the frequency well. I'd pronounce it as "illian" if I had occasion to say the word.<br /><br />On the other hand, I'm in California, and I suspect that out here we butcher Gaelic pronunciations even more than do other Americans.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389602137217799305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-91503707757957163512011-11-04T03:20:45.343+00:002011-11-04T03:20:45.343+00:00I've only heard /ˈɪlən/ (or that 2nd vowel mig...I've only heard /ˈɪlən/ (or that 2nd vowel might be a barred cap-I). I'm US all my life, and a follower of folk music ditto, so that's where I'd've learned the pron. I have what seems to be a clear memory of learning it by hearing it, NOT by looking it up or seeing a description of the pronunciation. -- Mark Mandelthniduhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14958704597426844701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-36899328085050306372011-10-31T13:13:56.027+00:002011-10-31T13:13:56.027+00:00I must have been sleepy when I made my first post ...I must have been sleepy when I made my first post above, because the nominative <b>uilleann</b> is pronounced [ˈɪlʲənˠ] not [ˈɪlʲənʲ]. Sorry.Michael Eversonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16882679137179765872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-11891490991668250612011-10-28T14:44:20.502+01:002011-10-28T14:44:20.502+01:00I'm afraid I don't know how to use phoneti...I'm afraid I don't know how to use phonetic transcription, but I do take part in folk music events in Wales. I've always heard this instrument referred to as "ooh-lee-ann" pipes.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04511707691481675163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-65136594526979401222011-10-28T08:14:14.027+01:002011-10-28T08:14:14.027+01:00@John Cowan: neither. This use of N is a conventi...@John Cowan: neither. This use of N is a convention used for Goidelic languages to indicate something "fortis".<br /><br />http://www.akerbeltz.org/beagangaidhlig/gramar/grammar_lnr.htm<br />and<br />http://www.akerbeltz.org/beagangaidhlig/gramar/grammar_historyofLNR.htm<br />may be of interest (though focussed more on Scottish Gaelic than Irish).JHJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03257258313943639485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-7313529758660518682011-10-28T01:31:41.087+01:002011-10-28T01:31:41.087+01:00Army, by N do you mean the velar nasal ŋ, or the u...Army, by N do you mean the velar nasal ŋ, or the uvular nasal ɴ? I cannot read what's in brackets because of font problems.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-78607946381795288202011-10-27T19:14:56.957+01:002011-10-27T19:14:56.957+01:00Mapping the broad/narrow distinction of Irish cons...<i>Mapping the broad/narrow distinction of Irish consonants to Hiberno-English ones is fraught. [...] I guess the various l forms provides the widest menu of possibilities.</i><br /><br />Actually, not even all *Irish* dialects handle them the same way. (I'm going to use n rather than l in the following examples to have a reasonable chance that your font will place the diacritics in a sane way, but the situation is the same.) Irish historically had /Nʲ, nʲ, nˠ and Nˠ/ (roughly [ɲˑ ~ n̠ʲˑ], [n̺ʲ], [n̺ˠ] and [n̪ˠˑ]), but some dialects have merged /Nˠ/ with /nˠ/ and/or /Nʲ/ with /nʲ/, and some have merged /nʲ/ and /nˠ/ together keeping /Nʲ/ and /Nˠ/ separate. (The compromise pronunciation used in dictionaries merges /Nʲ/ with /nʲ/ and /Nˠ/ with /nˠ/.)army1987https://www.blogger.com/profile/01166052755101226806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-44189879961146204172011-10-27T16:34:12.313+01:002011-10-27T16:34:12.313+01:00I too say ['ɪlən]; the oddest pronunciation I ...I too say ['ɪlən]; the oddest pronunciation I have heard is ['wɪljəm].John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-41511185111063758062011-10-27T16:07:26.975+01:002011-10-27T16:07:26.975+01:00I pronounce it like "million" (but witho...I pronounce it like "million" (but without an m, of course).Plumflowerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03237822670257123453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-78075739752178450752011-10-27T13:17:17.383+01:002011-10-27T13:17:17.383+01:00I will say 'ɪlən from now on.
I loved John&#...I will say <b> 'ɪlən</b> from now on.<br /><br />I loved John's link to Seamus Ennis, so I looked for Leo Rowsome online. There are several sound recordings and this remarkable <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqocnoRXEUg&feature=related" rel="nofollow">film clip</a> with Rowsome playing and a delightful counter-image to the then future that is Riverdance.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-24937046794273416382011-10-27T12:52:40.545+01:002011-10-27T12:52:40.545+01:00['ɪlən] is how I've always pronounced it; ...['ɪlən] is how I've always pronounced it; this is also what's given in T. P. Dolan's <i>Dictionary of Hiberno-English</i>.<br /><br /><i>Uilleach</i> means angular or having corners; <i>uilleannach</i> means elbowing, nudging, or having prominent elbows.<br /><br />(I'm from Galway in the west of Ireland.)Stanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03386875624025404452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-61737212068773451082011-10-27T11:38:58.805+01:002011-10-27T11:38:58.805+01:00@mollymooly: Yeah the s is one of he few letters w...@mollymooly: Yeah the <i>s</i> is one of he few letters with a straightforward mapping of broad and slender sounds in their anglicisation.<br /><br />But in the North we treat <i>t</i> and <i>d</i> in a similar way: Broad, they're <b>t</b> and <b>d</b>; slender, they're <b>tʃ</b> and <b>dʒ</b>.Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13722482936100504510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-91791444595169355782011-10-27T11:18:17.367+01:002011-10-27T11:18:17.367+01:00I would say and hear [ˈɪlən] in Munster English. M...I would say and hear [ˈɪlən] in Munster English. Mapping the broad/narrow distinction of Irish consonants to Hiberno-English ones is fraught. The easiest mapping is for s: /s/ broad and /ʃ/ narrow. I guess the various l forms provides the widest menu of possibilities.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-58159372226013265112011-10-27T10:43:01.545+01:002011-10-27T10:43:01.545+01:00I missed John's reference to Union in the Wiki...I missed John's reference to <i>Union</i> in the Wikipedia article. The argument there rests on the fact that the first <b>written</b> use is <i>union</i>. It seems to me much more likely that the corruption was from <i>uillean</i> to <i>union</i> <b>before</b> either was written down. 'Elbow pipes' seems a perfect term. Certainly, that's what my Claddagh sleevenotes say.<br /><br /> The argument cited in Wikipedia rests on the assertion that '<i>the instrument did not exist as such</i>' in Shakespeare's time. But that wouldn't preclude some predecessor instrument having the same name. Simpler 'elbowed' (bellows driven) instruments are still around, and not only in Northumberland.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-20131794492020068872011-10-27T10:30:48.758+01:002011-10-27T10:30:48.758+01:00The only time I've heard Cruithne (/ˈkɾˠɪ(h)nʲ...The only time I've heard <i>Cruithne</i> (/ˈkɾˠɪ(h)nʲə/ in Irish) pronounced in English it was /kruˈɪθnə/ (or /kruˈɪθni/, can't remember for sure). My bet is that the speaker had never heard that word before and just guessed. (Something similar would explain why the four possible pronunciations of <i>ether</i> in recordings of "Comma Gets a Cure" don't seem to correlate with anything else, and why a sizeable fraction of speaker correct themselves wrt the pronunciation of the E (but none that I've heard so far does wrt the TH, who knows why).army1987https://www.blogger.com/profile/01166052755101226806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-61390489669279090022011-10-27T10:25:13.112+01:002011-10-27T10:25:13.112+01:00Michael
I'm not in the least surprised that n...Michael<br /><br />I'm not in the least surprised that neither of my pronunciations are authentic. But that's not what John asked for.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-15992032305612135752011-10-27T10:20:58.217+01:002011-10-27T10:20:58.217+01:00I've found my source for Union pipes — the sle...I've found my source for <i>Union pipes</i> — the sleeve notes to a Leo Rowsome LP on the serious Claddagh Record label. The authors 'JM & G de B' don't offer a pronunciation. However, they do speculate:<br /><br /><i>when Shakespeare in <b>The Merchant of Venice</b> speaks of 'woollen bagpipes' he probably means the Uillean pipes.</i><br /><br />(Why the capitalisation I wonder.)<br /><br />Once upon a time I mixed with and spoke with people who knew and could use the authentic pronunciation. They never did so in my hearing because <i>the pipes</i> was always unambiguous in the context.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-2242011066569021642011-10-27T10:11:35.267+01:002011-10-27T10:11:35.267+01:00The pronunciations with [ʊ] are incorrect, as are ...The pronunciations with [ʊ] are incorrect, as are any pronunciations with a long vowel [uː] or [iː] in the first syllable. The modern nominative in Irish is <b>uilleann</b>, gen. <b>uillinn</b>.Michael Eversonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16882679137179765872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-67576366493570215022011-10-27T10:00:57.371+01:002011-10-27T10:00:57.371+01:00In Irish the pronunciation is [ˈɪlʲənʲ] and in Hib...In Irish the pronunciation is [ˈɪlʲənʲ] and in Hiberno-English both [ˈɪljən] and [ˈɪlən] are heard.Michael Eversonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16882679137179765872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-80450818682116871882011-10-27T09:44:35.174+01:002011-10-27T09:44:35.174+01:00I have two pronunciations
• spelling-based 'ʊl...I have two pronunciations<br />• spelling-based <i>'ʊliən</i> or <i>'jʊliən</i><br />• ear-based (I think) <i>'ɛliən</i><br /><br />I don't regard either as 'correct', which doesn't matter as I never pronounce the word nowadays without explaining and describing the instrument. <br /><br />In the past I was more of a folky and did find myself in conversations where interlocutor(s) and I both/all knew what uilleann pipes were. Then my rule was to pronounce it the way the other guy did. (Not that it mattered much; after a first mention one would just say <i>pipes</i>.)<br /><br />I have read that Anglicised <i>union pipes</i> is or has been used in Ireland alongside the authentic name.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-85447213312271962002011-10-27T09:29:27.948+01:002011-10-27T09:29:27.948+01:00As an Irishman who follows traditional Irish music...As an Irishman who follows traditional Irish music, I can assure you that it's universally pronounced <b>'ɐlən</b> in the North of Ireland, which would be <b>'ɪlən</b> (or possibly <b>'ɪlɪn</b>) in RP. So it would be anglicised <i>illen</i>.<br /><br />In Irish the pipes are called <i>píoba uilleann</i>, pronounced <b>pʲ'iəba 'ɪlʲɐn</b> in the Northern dialiect, which would regularly yield the anglicisation above.<br /><br />I'm not sure if a different pronunciation is used in the South. They speak a different dialect of English, and also a different dialect of Irish down there. But the Wikipedia article given <b>'ɪlən</b> as the English pronunciation, which looks correct to me.<br /><br />I've never heard <b>'u:lɪən</b> and I can't see how anyone could get such a pronunciation, other than by interpreting the spelling <i>uilleann</i> as an English word. Irish orthography is radically different from those of other European langages and I can see how the initial silent U would confuse.Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13722482936100504510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-40496260699790015322011-10-27T09:19:37.177+01:002011-10-27T09:19:37.177+01:00I've heard it from a Hollywood orchestrator, w...I've heard it from a Hollywood orchestrator, who used it in one of the scores, and it was, as above, <b>ˈɪlən</b>. The word is also on <a href="http://www.forvo.com/word/uilleann_pipes/" rel="nofollow"><i>Forvo</i> (three pronunciations, two from Ireland)</a> and <a href="http://www.irishcultureandcustoms.com/3focloir/lessons6.html" rel="nofollow"><i>Irish Culture and Customs</i></a> website.Duchesse de Guermanteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12198316853449400624noreply@blogger.com