tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post3941343947113670300..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: endangered, exoticJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-59164117480882036072011-05-17T16:39:17.195+01:002011-05-17T16:39:17.195+01:00Ad Lipman
I know only the word 'Kühchen' ...Ad Lipman<br /><br />I know only the word 'Kühchen' from Standard German (actual use), but then I haven't studied the matter systematically.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-77115346027850730102011-05-17T08:34:28.308+01:002011-05-17T08:34:28.308+01:00This is in fact the standard example, the other ha...This is in fact the standard example, the other half of the near-minimal pair being <i>fauchen</i> (hiss, of cats).<br /><br />But I think in real life, <i>Kuhchen</i> works perfectly well for most speakers of Standard German, where this kind of umlaut isn't as productive. It might be felt to be colloquial or children's language, but that's at least as much due to the use of a diminutive in the first place. <i>Kühchen</i> wouldn't be most people's first choice.<br /><br />There are arguments in favour and against filing those sounds as separate phonemes, but speakers surely are able to use them in the same phonetic environment.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-88765429568130121812011-05-17T07:44:29.680+01:002011-05-17T07:44:29.680+01:00Ad Luke
If my German is any reliable, the second ...Ad Luke<br /><br />If my German is any reliable, the second (little cow) has ky: rather than ku:. Kühchen, not Kuhchen. <br /><br />The diminutive suffix -chen forces Umlaut (fronting) of the preceding vowel, and -ch after a front vowel is always (exceptions?) ç. The only exception of the former I can think of is 'Frauchen' (she-master of a pet, like a dog and so on), rather than '*Fräuchen'. But unfortunately, another word, like a verb or the like, '*frauchen', does not seem to exist.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-30180587040308580152011-05-16T16:33:25.939+01:002011-05-16T16:33:25.939+01:00Sensitivity to morpheme boundaries makes ç - x som...Sensitivity to morpheme boundaries makes ç - x somewhat less than allophonic, as in Kuchen <b>kuːxŋ̩</b> "cake" vs. Kuhchen <b>kuːçɲ̩</b> "little cow".lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10967852565627690025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-69519111049581247502011-05-16T14:18:11.281+01:002011-05-16T14:18:11.281+01:00Ad Army1987
Referring to the ç - x distinction in...Ad Army1987<br /><br />Referring to the ç - x distinction in German:<br /><br />If it's allophonic, it “exists as a distinction” no more than dark vs clear /l/ or aspirated vs unaspirated /p t k/ do in English. Or even labiodental /m/ before /f v/ for that matter...<br /><br />No, I should say it enjoys a bit stronger mode of existence (as a distinction) in German than the above 'uns in English. Germans or germanophones generally are more aware of it, refer to them as the 'Ich-Laut' and 'Ach-Laut', resp., outside of strictly phonetician's contexts... The distinction, in short, is part of the common German 'pronunciation' lore.... Maybe because in various German dialects it does not exist, both allophones collapsing into 'x', (Switzerland), or ç becoming something very different from 'x', something like 'sh' (sorry for not using API). For English I am not sure if most anglophone persons are aware of there being a difference between aspirated and unaspirated /p t k/ or the two /l/'s, they rather aren't, methinks.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-38989569341097960572011-05-16T12:57:03.892+01:002011-05-16T12:57:03.892+01:00If it's allophonic, it “exists as a distinctio...If it's allophonic, it “exists as a distinction” no more than dark vs clear /l/ or aspirated vs unaspirated /p t k/ do in English. Or even labiodental /m/ before /f v/ for that matter...army1987https://www.blogger.com/profile/01166052755101226806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-52461261933250933782011-05-16T11:29:55.868+01:002011-05-16T11:29:55.868+01:00Ad Kilian Hekhuis
"German has this ç - x dis...Ad Kilian Hekhuis<br /><br />"German has this ç - x distinction too"<br /><br />It is. Yet it exists as a distinction, allophonic as it may be.<br /><br />Tt makes me wonder, though, that Provencal and Welsh should be seen on a par with Manx, which I was taught at school has been extinct for a couple of generations already. <br /><br />And do Prov. and Welsh have only a handful of speakers?Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-74581366536667818822011-05-16T07:54:38.339+01:002011-05-16T07:54:38.339+01:00"German has this ç - x distinction too" ..."German has this ç - x distinction too" - isn't this allophonic in German?Kilian Hekhuishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01084720179158650652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-91746118002954347052011-05-15T17:57:12.830+01:002011-05-15T17:57:12.830+01:00@Lipman:
Yeah, I've heard fears that Irish is ...@Lipman:<br />Yeah, I've heard fears that Irish is going to become a pidgin if lots of non-native speakers use imperfectly learnt Irish. But if the enthusiasts have the living native speakers as their ‘model’, I don't think that's a great danger. (After all if today pretty much everyone in Italy speaks Italian and a century ago hardly anyone did except in Tuscany and Rome, it means that there have been lots of people speaking Italian even though they didn't grow up speaking it, and yet Italian hasn't exactly become “a hollow calque”.)<br />As for Esperanto <i>arbo</i>, what's your point? When two say <i>football</i> in English one will see association football and the other American football; so what?army1987https://www.blogger.com/profile/01166052755101226806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-72228603403759085322011-05-15T14:28:56.346+01:002011-05-15T14:28:56.346+01:00Blogger's promised restoration of comments is ...Blogger's promised restoration of comments is obviously never going to happen, and although John may not look kindly on a discussion of Esperanto under "endangered, exotic" he might care to be given sight of this save of an earlier exchange on this entry which was removed:<br /><br />mallamb said...<br /><br /> Well if Abley's mention of Chomsky is not the standard token one he may have some notion of Universals as “an elaborate array of phonetic devices” which any old language partakes of. But to judge from the Yiddish farrago it's the metaphors that run away with him.<br /><br /> Are not we Esperanto-speaking sons of bitches well-meaning hobbyists at one and the same time? Would it not be paradoxical if perchance we have been speaking it, singing in it, playing in it, using it to destruction? Say not the struggle naught availeth.<br /> 12 May 2011 14:17 <br />Lipman said...<br /><br /> Speaking by NNS enthusiasts might destruct the language from the inside and make it a hollow calque.<br /> 12 May 2011 14:52 <br />mallamb said...<br /><br /> Tickled pink by your cruel sardony, but if it's intended to apply to Esperanto, you may be surprised how many NSs there have been over the generations since its calquy Euroorigins, and how decalqued and idiosyncratically original it has become over those generations of creative use.<br /> 12 May 2011 15:29 <br />Lipman said...<br /><br /> Didn't mean Esperanto. Still, when two say arbo, one will see an oak and the other a cedar.<br /> 12 May 2011 15:42 <br />mallamb said...<br /><br /> I see a pretty nondescript tree. I'm a disgrace for a Japanese speaker. Are these eidetic excesses related to cognates?<br /> 12 May 2011 15:57mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-37099994608532571562011-05-15T11:11:59.503+01:002011-05-15T11:11:59.503+01:00Glad to read the doctors let you escape from hospi...Glad to read the doctors let you escape from hospital!Krauthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11932831673529849848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-38211906575551572332011-05-15T03:24:41.914+01:002011-05-15T03:24:41.914+01:00Nice review - I'm looking forward to reading h...Nice review - I'm looking forward to reading his book :)Kate Lynn Lindseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09556493217311374866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-40041895949555029882011-05-12T15:57:27.960+01:002011-05-12T15:57:27.960+01:00I see a pretty nondescript tree. I'm a disgrac...I see a pretty nondescript tree. I'm a disgrace for a Japanese speaker. Are these eidetic excesses related to cognates?mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-62381951894942736562011-05-12T15:42:33.852+01:002011-05-12T15:42:33.852+01:00Didn't mean Esperanto. Still, when two say arb...Didn't mean Esperanto. Still, when two say <i>arbo</i>, one will see an oak and the other a cedar.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-82667777739054827602011-05-12T15:29:12.124+01:002011-05-12T15:29:12.124+01:00Tickled pink by your cruel sardony, but if it'...Tickled pink by your cruel sardony, but if it's intended to apply to Esperanto, you may be surprised how many NSs there have been over the generations since its calquy Euroorigins, and how decalqued and idiosyncratically original it has become over those generations of creative use.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-58939370020882568782011-05-12T14:52:16.083+01:002011-05-12T14:52:16.083+01:00Speaking by NNS enthusiasts might destruct the lan...Speaking by NNS enthusiasts might destruct the language from the inside and make it a hollow calque.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-52561375535742964712011-05-12T14:17:42.583+01:002011-05-12T14:17:42.583+01:00Well if Abley's mention of Chomsky is not the ...Well if Abley's mention of Chomsky is not the standard token one he may have some notion of Universals as “an elaborate array of phonetic devices” which any old language partakes of. But to judge from the Yiddish farrago it's the metaphors that run away with him.<br /><br />Are not we Esperanto-speaking sons of bitches well-meaning hobbyists at one and the same time? Would it not be paradoxical if perchance we have been speaking it, singing in it, playing in it, using it to destruction? Say not the struggle naught availeth.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-8085342668509070062011-05-12T13:37:10.217+01:002011-05-12T13:37:10.217+01:00You're a lucky man -when I'm in hospital I...You're a lucky man -when I'm in hospital I'm so scared that I can't concentrate on any reading.Beatrice Portinarihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13626472955669713053noreply@blogger.com