tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post3960551005977175891..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: iron or...John Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-36784764177480109382009-11-28T21:11:06.708+00:002009-11-28T21:11:06.708+00:00I've heard Germans pronounce the relevant part...<i>I've heard Germans pronounce the relevant part as [aɪən] as in </i>iron.<br /><br />And I do likewise... and I've seen the spelling <i>enviornment</i> so often (by native speakers) that I wonder if some people actually mean it.<br /><br />I do keep the /r/ in <i>irony</i>, though.<br /><br /><i>Reepubcan ideas of tehr-rists</i><br /><br />No, no, no. Terrrists /tɛr.r̩.rɪsts/ with three (short) syllables and one impressively long [ɻ].David Marjanovićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-85822353105696564402009-11-28T16:31:12.969+00:002009-11-28T16:31:12.969+00:00Sorry, didn't mean to confuse. I wish you cou...Sorry, didn't mean to confuse. I wish you could edit your own comments. I need an editor.Leohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04023787332836734901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-17454112162091205262009-11-28T14:25:06.098+00:002009-11-28T14:25:06.098+00:00Oh Gawd, Leo, you did give me a turn. You had no q...Oh Gawd, Leo, you did give me a turn. You had no quote marks at the beginning of the second para, and I thought it was your own funny joke.<br /><br />But it's OK. I checked your link, and it's not so much that he doesn't know when to stop digging: he does get himself in deeper, but by wriggling. Like a worm.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-41815178217974573692009-11-28T11:11:02.089+00:002009-11-28T11:11:02.089+00:00Hoggart doesn't know when to stop digging:
ht...Hoggart doesn't know when to stop digging:<br /><br />http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2009/nov/28/simon-hoggarts-week<br /><br />"Many, many cross Scottish readers have written in to say that's how it's said north of the border, and that it is a perfectly valid pronunciation, you English bigot.<br /><br />Well, no. Scots do pronounce the "r" but it's a soft, almost imperceptible rolled "r", sounding, if anything, like "I-urn". The prime minister says "eye-ron", two distinct syllables, as if Ron Atkinson was starting to take the oath."Leohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04023787332836734901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-42788400665157016122009-11-27T15:00:30.826+00:002009-11-27T15:00:30.826+00:00I always thought he couldn't be serious.I always thought he couldn't be serious.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-84734337611355484722009-11-27T14:41:45.977+00:002009-11-27T14:41:45.977+00:00Now the NPI makes me think youre going all hyperir...Now the NPI makes me think youre going all hyperironic.<br /><br />But it was quite a coup to get me to read "I probly drop lots of sylbles mself" without at first noticing any dropped syllables! I am usually a good proofreader. <br /><br />Quite a way to prove your point!<br /><br />A conundrum for you: Is Dubbya in or out of the punning and irony?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-58714400470808263162009-11-27T11:44:03.545+00:002009-11-27T11:44:03.545+00:00The tehr-rist thing made me think you used irony (...The <a href="http://users.livejournal.com/lipman_/16994.html" rel="nofollow">tehr-rist thing</a> made me think you used irony (NPI). (By the way, that had been a bit unfair, I probly drop lots of sylbles mself, and I don't usually mind a Texan accent. But Dubbya brought out the worst in us.)Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-74959881297887971442009-11-27T11:19:24.886+00:002009-11-27T11:19:24.886+00:00Yes I knew you were. I get the impression you read...Yes I knew you were. I get the impression you read "I take that to be a serious question" as "I <i>don't</i> take that to be a serious question"! I assure you I too have heard Germans as well as Reepubcans pronounce the relevant part as [aɪən], [ˈaɪɚn] etc., but [ˈaɪɚn]etc. are more probably because of JW's metathesis (see the above blog entry) than by analogy, I think.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-74491156281601009272009-11-26T18:36:05.400+00:002009-11-26T18:36:05.400+00:00No, I was entirely serious. I've heard Germans...No, I was entirely serious. I've heard Germans pronounce the relevant part as [aɪən] as in <i>iron</i>.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-84129477991045780542009-11-26T18:28:45.353+00:002009-11-26T18:28:45.353+00:00In view of your study of Reepubcan ideas of tehr-r...In view of your study of Reepubcan ideas of tehr-rists (thanks for leading me to it and all the other delights) I take that to be a serious question!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-35685768122333106152009-11-26T06:02:54.118+00:002009-11-26T06:02:54.118+00:00David, how do you pronunce environment?David, how do you pronunce <i>environment</i>?Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-71996297840774614482009-11-26T00:27:39.127+00:002009-11-26T00:27:39.127+00:00As a non-native I used to use exactly Brown's ...<i>As a non-native I used to use exactly Brown's spelling pronunciation.</i><br /><br />As another non-native, I was taught explicitly that (and how) the spelling is misleading, and went on to interpret the <i>-ro-</i> part like the <i>-re</i> of BrE <i>theatre, centre</i> and so on, that is, as [ɐ ~ ə], in an attempt to line up the spelling with the pronunciation in <b>some</b> way.<br /><br />The only problem is I would have extended it to <i>Byron</i> till a few minutes ago. Fortunately I never had to pronounce that name, I think.David Marjanovićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-46041275374610689092009-11-25T17:34:20.574+00:002009-11-25T17:34:20.574+00:00I just searched YouTube for "Neil Oliver"...I just searched YouTube for "Neil Oliver". That clip actually comes higher up the search list than the real Neil. No idea who it is - everyone's a performer these days. And being the most Scottish man in the world, he's an obvious choice for impressionists.<br /><br />By the way, my dad reports "eye-ron" for Scots (sorry, I can't get the IPA to work) and specifies an actual trilled [r] for the "really hardcore". Although I gues Groundskeeper Willie could have told you that.Leohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04023787332836734901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-75547629855756070242009-11-25T16:51:48.266+00:002009-11-25T16:51:48.266+00:00Thank you both for the laughs, probably equally ap...Thank you both for the laughs, probably equally apocryphal.<br /><br />How <i>do</i> you find these things, Leo? Who is the impersonator?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-88489826976651706232009-11-24T21:55:16.003+00:002009-11-24T21:55:16.003+00:00"I don't think anyone ever called me on i..."I don't think anyone ever called me on it, though."<br />People are usually too polite to call non-native speakers on weird stuff (at least here in Italy -- YMMV). I had a professor from Poland who told us of when he used to say "gravidanza" (pregnancy) when he meant "gravità" (gravity), and to wonder why people would look at him amusedly. Nobody had explained that to him until years later.army1987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-54666359128481156632009-11-24T17:28:16.171+00:002009-11-24T17:28:16.171+00:00Sounds like you don't need my help then, Malla...Sounds like you don't need my help then, Mallamb. Unless you wish me to interrogate my father, a long-exiled Scot, on this matter.<br /><br />Meanwhile, if you think Neil Oliver is out of Monty Python, you might like this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j33usP0svLQ&feature=relatedLeohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04023787332836734901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-33454080707398073522009-11-24T16:08:21.511+00:002009-11-24T16:08:21.511+00:00Yes Leo, I realized you imagined that all rhotic s...Yes Leo, I realized you imagined that all rhotic speakers would appeal to the fact that the r is "there", even those who say 'aɪərn. But it's not just that the writer doesn't criticise 'aɪrən – Hoggart was making a big fuss about the "place and manner" of its pronunciation (i.e. as in "eye-ron"):<br /><br />'the only person in the English-speaking world who pronounces the letter "r" in "iron", thus: "cast eye-ron promise."' <br /><br />And the flakker protests that not only do all Scots pronounce the "r" in iron, but that he'd like to know why not to pronounce it when it's there. (i.e. where it is!) The more I think about it the more I think my earlier observation that "the writer apparently can't imagine it going anywhere else" was too diffident – it simply doesn’t occur to him that anyone else could imagine that his protest wasn’t a full endorsement of the full eye-ron!<br /><br />– There might be some clips of Neil Oliver saying it.<br /><br />But he's straight out of Monty Python! I wouldn’t be able to stick it even long enough to catch a specimen!<br /><br />Andrew, you are scrupulously circumspect in only reporting your own pronunciation. But I guess you <i>have</i> heard other Scots say [aɪərn]. Is it as unusual as I think? Could you be one of those near-RP dialect speakers we have been talking about, like Andrew Marr, for example?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-48242651198680085652009-11-24T15:50:58.596+00:002009-11-24T15:50:58.596+00:00For what it's worth, this Scot says [aɪəɹn].For what it's worth, this Scot says [aɪəɹn].Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10186726465918910238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-14460922249592146782009-11-24T13:55:11.281+00:002009-11-24T13:55:11.281+00:00Hmm. I imagine that all rhotic speakers would app...Hmm. I imagine that all rhotic speakers would appeal to the fact that the <i>r</i> is "there", even those who say 'aɪərn. But the fact that the writer doesn't criticise 'aɪrən does suggest that he's happy to attribute it to all Scots.<br /><br />I haven't heard enough Scots to judge! There might be some clips of Neil Oliver saying it though - he covers Scotland's Iron Age history, doesn't he?Leohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04023787332836734901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-63063613298050928162009-11-24T13:15:45.824+00:002009-11-24T13:15:45.824+00:00And Leo, why would your comment be unhelpful? Hogg...And Leo, why would your comment be unhelpful? Hoggart's ignorance is deeply shocking. He needs to be reading User's Guides, not writing them.<br /><br />You point out that the flak deflected from JW Doesn't say <i>where </i>the r in iron goes, but the interesting thing for me is that the writer apparently can't imagine it going anywhere else:<br /><br />'all Scots pronounce the "r" in iron. I'd like to know why not to pronounce it when it's there?'<br /><br />In my first comment on this blog I only said Brown’s pronunciation was shared by "an awful lot of Scots", but this has given me more confidence that all of them not only pronounce the "r" but parallel his pronunciation with respect to its position as well.<br /><br />Have <i>you</i> ever heard a Scot say aɪərn?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-28141300510779824432009-11-24T12:03:48.389+00:002009-11-24T12:03:48.389+00:00I think it means he can spell, and is familiar wit...I think it means he can spell, and is familiar with the spelling, but has never understood the word any better than the answer he so readily gives.<br /><br />Spot on, vp! And I think we may assume that's not an eye pun! OED's date of 1613 for Henry IV part ii is claimed elsewhere to be too late, but it's everywhere apparent in Shakespeare that the Great Vowel Shift was in full spate, so this evidence of əirən or whatever vindicates OED's argument that the syncopation did not take place until after diphthongation of the ī.<br /><br />DCF, do you have aɪ for I and ɛi for eye? Or can you give us any other minimal pairs? Other northern dialects have this opposition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-52793786986214076832009-11-24T10:52:58.577+00:002009-11-24T10:52:58.577+00:00Sili said:
"As a non-native I used to use exa...Sili said:<br />"As a non-native I used to use exactly Brown's spelling pronunciation."<br /><br />My impression is that very many non-native speakers use the same pronunciation.<br /><br />Also, this reminds me of that Blackadder joke:<br /><br />Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what /aIr@ni/ is?<br />Baldrick: Yes it's like goldy and bronzy only it's made out of /aI@n/.Gassalascahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15255623472487773378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-19044002604815919482009-11-23T22:47:14.999+00:002009-11-23T22:47:14.999+00:00NorthumberlandNorthumberlandDCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-70463305649760164752009-11-23T21:39:05.028+00:002009-11-23T21:39:05.028+00:00@DCF
Where are you from, if you don't mind my...@DCF<br /><br />Where are you from, if you don't mind my asking?vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-64463987493944711052009-11-23T21:34:10.016+00:002009-11-23T21:34:10.016+00:00VP: Sorry, it probably wasn't a very helpful c...VP: Sorry, it probably wasn't a very helpful comment for me to make. I'm just surprised that the author of a book called "America: A User's Guide" apparently hasn't noticed rhotic accents. I find the man annoying.Leohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04023787332836734901noreply@blogger.com