tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post4123211594490170164..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: OrmeJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-54111191196435037532010-09-05T12:58:38.939+01:002010-09-05T12:58:38.939+01:00I stumbled upon this whilst searching online for &...I stumbled upon this whilst searching online for 'Orme' as this is the name of the street I'll be living in for the up coming year in Bangor, Wales. (Orme Road) <br /><br />It's delightful to know that "Orme" has such an interesting etymology behind it! And I'm always one for a nice bit of etymology, studying Linguistics as I do.<br /><br />Very nice read if I do say so!<br /><br />CallumCallum Robsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11881755388106895141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-7658514218620307492010-05-26T02:17:35.504+01:002010-05-26T02:17:35.504+01:00Being a medievalist by training, I'm so used t...Being a medievalist by training, I'm so used to thinking of worms and ormar as big dragony things that what I would have surely forgotten is that this sense might NOT have been obvious to the casual listener! :)Carl Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08088507380154524745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-26196170490391996202010-05-23T04:12:19.764+01:002010-05-23T04:12:19.764+01:00@ John Cowan:
I was going to say that it reminded ...@ John Cowan:<br />I was going to say that it reminded me of Tolkien's works, but you beat me to it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-64500459999139340282010-05-21T20:09:16.365+01:002010-05-21T20:09:16.365+01:00Yes, in Swedish 'orm' definitely denotes &...Yes, in Swedish 'orm' definitely denotes 'snake'. Also, in Joseph Wright's English Dialect Dictionary 'worm' is said to stand for 'snake' in Scotland and Northumberland. (comment by Gunnel Melchers)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-80266246328097151462010-05-21T19:39:46.065+01:002010-05-21T19:39:46.065+01:00I grew up knowing that "Wyrm" meant &quo...I grew up knowing that "Wyrm" meant "dragon", mainly from JRR Tolkien read to me by my father - not such a great stretch of the imagination to know that a part of Wales (with the red dragon motif) is named after dragons :)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15140319519676873856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-27498919283447844572010-05-21T16:00:31.267+01:002010-05-21T16:00:31.267+01:00Well, in Swedish, anyhow, according to my Svensk-e...Well, in Swedish, anyhow, according to my Svensk-engelska ordboken.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-83376388678735764122010-05-21T16:00:28.656+01:002010-05-21T16:00:28.656+01:00Tolkien revived this sense of worm, as he did with...Tolkien revived this sense of <i>worm</i>, as he did with so many other obsolete words (e.g. <i>mathom, dwimmerlaik</i>) and senses. In <i>The Hobbit</i>, the word appears seven times, only once in the modern sense. For example, in Chapter 2 the villain of the book is introduced with the sentence "There was a most specially greedy, strong, and wicked worm called Smaug." It also is used in the nonce compounds <i>were-worms</i> and <i>wormstench</i>. I daresay there are now many people who recognize the old sense as a result: I first read <i>The Hobbit</i> at age seven, and I have no doubt that I thought nothing peculiar in Tolkien's use of <i>worm</i>, though I would hardly use it myself.<br /><br />In Tolkien's short story "Farmer Giles of Ham", the word is even more common: it appears 15 times in 7000 words, always in the sense 'dragon', and also in the proper names <i>Worming, Wormwardens</i>, and <i>Worminghall</i>, the last being an actual village in Buckinghamshire near Thame. In the real world, the village name is generally taken to contain the proper name <i>Wyrma</i>, but may (and for story purposes, does) contain <i>wyrm</i> directly.<br /><br />William Morris preceded Tolkien in the use of <i>worm</i> 'dragon', but before that you have to go back to <i>Sir Gawain and the Green Knight</i> in the OED's quotations for a literal use. The 1526 Tyndale translation of Acts 28:4 shows it in the sense 'snake', and similarly in <i>Antony and Cleopatra</i>, 1606; Milton and Pope use <i>the Worm</i> metaphorically for the Devil, after the usual interpretation of Genesis 3.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-1497960906050480392010-05-21T13:53:08.121+01:002010-05-21T13:53:08.121+01:00"Orm still has that meaning in Scandinavian l..."Orm still has that meaning in Scandinavian language"<br /><br />That's a stretch - in Danish at least. I'm only aware of it being used that way in mythology. Regnar Lodbrog may have died in an "ormegård", but today we'd call it a den of vipers.Jens Knudsen (Sili)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14078875730565068352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-79764538156286107042010-05-21T11:24:24.985+01:002010-05-21T11:24:24.985+01:00Re "According to Owen and Morgan, Dictionary ...Re "According to Owen and Morgan, Dictionary of the Place Names of Wales, the Orme at Llandudno is from ON ormr ‘snake’, but Worm’s Head in the Gower is from OE wyrm." Yes, in one sense, but the South Wales coast had more substantial Viking settlements than North Wales. My guess is that Worms Head was originally named by them exactly as they'd named the N Wales promontory and centuries later "Anglicised" at the time of English settlements in the area.Jack Windsor Lewisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-23825205646917061002010-05-21T10:58:29.910+01:002010-05-21T10:58:29.910+01:00Just had a quick glance out of my office window, b...Just had a quick glance out of my office window, but I'm afraid the Great Orme is shrouded in mist today so I can't see the dragon. This old meaning of worm reminds me of the Lambton Worm legend from County Durham which, it has been speculated, may have inspired Lewis Carroll's Jabberwocky. Anyhow, to wrench this back to phonetics, the Lambton Worm legend is associated with Penshaw Hill near Sunderland. Just as with nearby Houghton-le-Spring, Penshaw can catch out those without access to a local or a pronunciation dictionary: it's [ˈpɛnʃə].Paulnoreply@blogger.com