tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post4221168332336238391..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: making clicksJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-2711806255800681562011-02-27T08:48:13.634+00:002011-02-27T08:48:13.634+00:00Forget adding a coarticulation like aspiration or ...Forget adding a coarticulation like aspiration or voicing. I'm wondering if you have any insight into pedagogical techniques for acquiring such sounds.Veneershttp://healthysmilesdentaloffice.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-72492704264300205912010-06-16T18:46:17.375+01:002010-06-16T18:46:17.375+01:00David
Just press the Edit button, and the true sh...David<br /><br /><i>Just press the Edit button, and the true shape will be revealed.</i><br /><br />All the Edit button reveals to me (in e.g. the Dental click article) is that as you say they are using the keyboard ASCII character (|), the "vertical bar", as it's called in Unicode (U007C), for the code <i>preceding</i> the ǀ, the dental click, which is still indistinguishable from the LC Latin l even in edit mode, but that they don't distinguish between this "vertical bar" (U+007C) and the dental click symbol (U+01C0), since they proceed to call it a "vertical bar" in apposition, and link that to the article "Vertical bar", where they give its use in "Mathematics", "Physics", "Computing", including of course Wikipedia, where it's called a "pipe(d) link", and "Phonetics and orthography", where it says "the vertical bar is used to write the dental click (ǀ)", and gives a link back to where we started from!<br /><br />Well it's not supposed to be used to write the dental click (although it seems on most sites people are reduced to doing so because the site fonts don't distinguish the dental click from the LC Latin l), and in fact in the above quote the symbol given by Wikipedia in brackets <i>is </i> the dental click symbol (U+01C0), and the paragraph headed "Phonetics and orthography" goes on to say that it has its own Unicode point (U+01C0).<br /><br />What a shambles!mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-69947620242289611262010-06-16T03:03:44.676+01:002010-06-16T03:03:44.676+01:00I still have a hard time distinguishing between Zu...I still have a hard time distinguishing between Zulu C and X.Taylor Selsethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01053859319436082574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-87182065073190072202010-06-15T15:45:41.806+01:002010-06-15T15:45:41.806+01:00"Take the “simple, singly articulated” clicks..."Take the “simple, singly articulated” clicks as the starting point. Make sure that you can produce each of them on its own." - yeah, if only I could do that. A kind of suction noise is all there's to be heard...Kilian Hekhuishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01084720179158650652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-76926892412078442182010-06-15T10:03:46.896+01:002010-06-15T10:03:46.896+01:00Nice work, John - I suppose you also have somethin...Nice work, John - I suppose you also have something to say about the bilabial click? The rounded bilabial click, like other clicks, is common with a pragmatic meaning, as in the "air kiss" of English and many other communities, but seems to be rare as a phoneme (whether in rounded or spread variants). Cheers, DafyddDafydd Gibbonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00888207314153997719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-49927191017003510842010-06-14T23:07:46.839+01:002010-06-14T23:07:46.839+01:00John Cowan: in Rycroft's analysis, all pulmoni...John Cowan: in Rycroft's analysis, all pulmonic voiced obstruents in Zulu have breathy voice rather than modal voice, which is why they are "depressors" (= make a following tone lower than would otherwise be the case). So auditorily it is a combination of breathiness and the depressor tonal effect, both detectable mainly on the following vowel. The <i>ngc, ngq, ngx</i>series have these qualities, while the <i>nc, nq, nx</i> series lack them.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-62639553283824754102010-06-14T15:51:37.805+01:002010-06-14T15:51:37.805+01:00Thanks! I think I've almost got those aspirat...Thanks! I think I've almost got those aspirated and voiced clicks down. Focusing on the velar closure was a key step.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13845139257399756782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-13527938978339008072010-06-14T15:32:41.439+01:002010-06-14T15:32:41.439+01:00I'm with you until #13; I only know how to mak...I'm with you until #13; I only know how to make breathy-voiced oral continuants (or in fact vowels), not nasal ones. I can make modla voice or creaky voice, but breathy voice seems to insist on coming out normal. Any tricks for <i>that</i>? Or is it adequate for Zulu to assign the breathiness to the following vowel?John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-73330284500349319992010-06-14T15:00:33.201+01:002010-06-14T15:00:33.201+01:00Mallamb
If ever again, you're at a Wkipedia p...Mallamb<br /><br />If ever again, you're at a <i>Wkipedia</i> page which <i><b>might</b></i> have a dental click symbol, you don't have to copy and paste into another program to find out. Just press the <b>Edit</b> button, and the true shape will be revealed.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-1402769173996128152010-06-14T14:04:24.735+01:002010-06-14T14:04:24.735+01:00Don't ask me! But it's Ladefoged's sou...Don't ask me! But it's Ladefoged's sound files that make it sound easy! He doesn't give the murmured ones, though. I thought for a moment the examples were in a font that worked, but of course they're in graphics.<br /><br />I have been googling the symbol to see if anyone does give the dental click in a font that works, and the big laugh is that of course the first hit is Wikipedia, where we know it's indistinguishable, and that is the article on dental clicks itself which says<br /><br />>Prior to 1989, [ʇ] was the IPA representation of the voiceless velar dental click. It is still occasionally used where the symbol [ǀ] would be confounded with other symbols, such as prosody marks.<<br /><br />As if it were only non-alphabetic symbols!<br /><br />And the vast majority of the hits for the vertical bar click symbol itself are web pages where it's not only indistinguishable, but used for just about anything but its intended purpose. <br /><br />The ad-hoc device of using | for it makes it completely unsearchable, of course, as David reports that he found when he tried to edit Wikipedia. I was aware you had been using | on this site from way back, but a fortiori your site search just goes berserk when I try to find where.<br /><br />The situation with this IPA aberration really is dire. Even the lateral click flips in and out of indistinguishability as the two vertical bars merge at pretty well half of the font size settings.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-65706995068832791022010-06-14T13:08:46.668+01:002010-06-14T13:08:46.668+01:00Thanks - OK now?Thanks - OK now?John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-44256712296432038932010-06-14T13:03:58.605+01:002010-06-14T13:03:58.605+01:00You have ʖ for ʇ a couple of times.You have ʖ for ʇ a couple of times.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.com