tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post535578353257332450..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: the myth of maɨθJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-85609011300090761202020-08-06T13:42:20.085+01:002020-08-06T13:42:20.085+01:00ประเด็นเด็ด ดราม่าข่าวกีฬา พร้อมข่าวปันเทิง อันโต...ประเด็นเด็ด ดราม่าข่าวกีฬา พร้อมข่าวปันเทิง <a href="https://lvp010.blogspot.com/2020/08/blog-post_5.html" rel="nofollow"> อันโตนิโอ นักเตะยอดเยี่ยม</a>มโน เอาเองhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07048743272464383784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-1877497847019164012011-01-26T07:21:05.110+00:002011-01-26T07:21:05.110+00:00Ad Andrew
The same shift in the Germanic family. ...Ad Andrew<br /><br />The same shift in the Germanic family. <br /><br />It was the other way round,they (language historians) tell us: from 'I' to 'owe', the Old English intermediate form was 'ah': 'gyste', 'gahst' 'gowst' (ghost), whereas in German it was just 'gyste' 'gayste' 'gyste' (Geist). The stift from 'out' to 'ite' seems unparallelled in any other language, afaik --- like much else in English... .Tołłoczkonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-56298287512864172462010-12-11T21:07:20.852+00:002010-12-11T21:07:20.852+00:00The 'abite' pronunciation seems a bit exag...The 'abite' pronunciation seems a bit exaggerated, but I agree that something more akin to [əɥ] is a lot closer to the actual pronunciation. (This same pronunciation is also evident in the pronunciation of perceived upper-class-ish young people in the media: cf. Emma Watson in the Harry Potter films.)<br /><br />This same sound shift already happened at least once in the Germanic language family, which is why we have such pairs as ghost/Geist most/meist- with modern German.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14323047226383220102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-31602115014138681852010-12-11T20:58:17.338+00:002010-12-11T20:58:17.338+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14323047226383220102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-79909554278223109022010-12-11T20:56:32.137+00:002010-12-11T20:56:32.137+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14323047226383220102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-89542497392597037892010-12-11T15:10:15.816+00:002010-12-11T15:10:15.816+00:00You learnt about kyne at infants' school? It m...You learnt about kyne at infants' school? It must have been a prestigious institution indeed, either that or it was a long time ago.Simon M Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06879703456056313280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-46468304633212564962010-12-10T19:58:23.667+00:002010-12-10T19:58:23.667+00:00kynecil without the e would have been read by most...<em>kynecil</em> without the <em>e</em> would have been read by most as <strong>ˈkɪnsɪl</strong>. The <em>e</em> was necessary to make the vowel long (when I was at infants' school, it was called the 'magic <em>e</em>').Steve Doerrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11410868047916610730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-28083335144898545392010-12-10T19:14:36.360+00:002010-12-10T19:14:36.360+00:00Well. But where do you get the schwa in kaɨnəsɪl?
...Well. But where do you get the schwa in kaɨnəsɪl?<br /><br />From the 'e' in kynecil, and because with a schwa it sounds even more ridiculous. Of course the 'e' in 'kyne' could be silent, but everything to do with cadhain is a wild goose chase...Simon M Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06879703456056313280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-90114631648877562662010-12-09T17:35:18.498+00:002010-12-09T17:35:18.498+00:00Yes. I suspect this is because I listened to this ...Yes. I suspect this is because I listened to <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-x1vRJ91AY" rel="nofollow">this great calypso song</a> yesterday. (By the way, the text should have been "It's Nazi sympathies and Nazi sympathies alone", but that turned out to scan badly.)Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-28716238499196454072010-12-09T16:57:11.505+00:002010-12-09T16:57:11.505+00:00@Lipman -
please, the PRINCE of Wales - not dook! ...@Lipman -<br />please, the PRINCE of Wales - not dook! :)Martin J Ballhttp://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~mjb0372/mjball.htmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-83926899623288049022010-12-09T15:48:16.748+00:002010-12-09T15:48:16.748+00:00@ army1987: I've even heard [ai] in Ulster. I...@ army1987: I've even heard [ai] in Ulster. It seems to be much more common there than in RP.Philnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-32192124966429903822010-12-09T12:39:32.585+00:002010-12-09T12:39:32.585+00:00Anonymous no. 57835,
that's what I meant. She...Anonymous no. 57835,<br /><br />that's what I meant. She and the Duke of Wales fit the timeframe, while her father had a starting vowel more to the back. Both aren't rare for the RP of their time. If there's an element of class habits, I think it's more how open the first part of the sound is than how far back.<br /><br />(PS: Only now saw the accompanying photo - great choice!)Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-44696711243979631452010-12-09T11:15:12.381+00:002010-12-09T11:15:12.381+00:00army1987: Ulster English has [æɵ] (X-Sampa [{8]) f...<a href="http://phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/2010/12/myth-of-ma.html?showComment=1291834510018#c1735377183051755839" rel="nofollow">army1987</a>: Ulster English has [æɵ] (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Speech_Assessment_Methods_Phonetic_Alphabet#Vowels" rel="nofollow">X-Sampa</a> [{8]) for the MOUTH vowel, as does Scottish English.Robert Gibsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-84702838939022397402010-12-08T21:52:14.703+00:002010-12-08T21:52:14.703+00:00Using OU for the GOAT vowel is common to a lot of ...Using OU for the GOAT vowel is common to a lot of regional accents and is not considered posh. It is EU that is considered posh for GOAT and the Queen does use this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-17353771830517558392010-12-08T18:55:10.018+00:002010-12-08T18:55:10.018+00:00Isn't [aɨ] (or something like that) for MOUTH ...Isn't [aɨ] (or something like that) for MOUTH broad Ulster accent?army1987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-10127005725588389452010-12-08T18:21:34.467+00:002010-12-08T18:21:34.467+00:00Well. But where do you get the schwa in kaɨnəsɪl?Well. But where do you get the schwa in <b>kaɨnəsɪl</b>?Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-4420782941959221102010-12-08T17:42:06.998+00:002010-12-08T17:42:06.998+00:00ə kaɨnəsɪl haɨs in ðə graɨndz indeed! I haven'...ə kaɨnəsɪl haɨs in ðə graɨndz indeed! I haven't stopped laughing since I read this.Simon M Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06879703456056313280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-14614472850038287342010-12-08T17:39:02.845+00:002010-12-08T17:39:02.845+00:00@Anonymous: I suspect that some of those politicia...@Anonymous: I suspect that some of those politicians (Cameron, for example) deliberately affect a middle-class RP accent - possibly even going as far as having elocution lessons? Just a hunch!Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13722482936100504510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-39439993137524063972010-12-08T16:49:28.510+00:002010-12-08T16:49:28.510+00:00(sorry, I meant fronter, rather than higher. Not t...(sorry, I meant fronter, rather than higher. Not that fronter is a word. I think it's sort of high-mid-ish. Wish I could look at it on a spectrogram.)ellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13036209994244477176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-1858619175183514592010-12-08T16:39:35.434+00:002010-12-08T16:39:35.434+00:00I think there is *something* there. There is a par...I think there is *something* there. There is a particular style of UC vowel that does seem to be higher than the current MC version. Listening to very early recordings of the Queen there is a marked difference. Some have speculated that Kate Middleton has received elocution lessons to move her vowels higher, I can't find a pre-engagement recording of her speaking to compare: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK3ODM5S0Lg<br />(btw, I don't recommend watching the whole video, it's a bit squirmy)ellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13036209994244477176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-27415730444721741522010-12-08T15:51:44.180+00:002010-12-08T15:51:44.180+00:00@Pete: GOAT-fronting is very common in Saith Dubli...@Pete: GOAT-fronting is very common in Saith Dublin, where MOUTH is also rising. I find non-natives often confuse my GOAT vowel for FACE and doubly so for MOUTH.Des Ryanhttp://www.a2dez.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-27170262684693069662010-12-08T15:01:29.636+00:002010-12-08T15:01:29.636+00:00I think the myth there is that it's U-RP. My i...I think the myth there is that it's U-RP. My impression is that it was simply fashionable for some time, say, between 1950 and 1980, but in all of RP. To me, a stereotypical U-RP GOAT vowel is rather unremarkable, quite similar to the GenAm [oʊ], or maybe [ɵʊ̈] at most, though this can border on a genteel, "refained" pronunciation.<br /><br />John W.?Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-32701115799708204832010-12-08T14:58:00.629+00:002010-12-08T14:58:00.629+00:00I am the Anonymous who wrote this.
If you confine...I am the Anonymous who wrote this.<br /><br />If you confine the "upper class" to the owners of huge country homes, it's a bit difficult to monitor how they speak since most people never get to hear them speak. I have never heard anyone use /ai/ in MOUTH, but that might be because I've never met a member of the upper classes.<br /><br />I believe that Tony Benn originates from the upper classes, and he does not use /ai/ in MOUTH. Is there any other well-known figure who is upper-class (royalty excluded)?<br /><br />If you have a broader definition so that it includes rich people in general, you might observe how children speak at Eton or a similar school. Judged by David Cameron and Boris Johnson (old Etonians), this is much like RP.<br /><br />I have noticed that young girls from all-female private schools are often Americanised in their speech. They say "Oh my God!" all the time, which I find very annoying.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-9328485039450720222010-12-08T14:53:03.445+00:002010-12-08T14:53:03.445+00:00What about the other upper-class stereotype, the ɛ...What about the other upper-class stereotype, the <b>ɛɨ</b> or <b>ɛʏ</b> pronunciation of the GOAT vowel? It's mentioned, for example, by Stephen Fry in his book <i>The Liar</i> when he says that "toast" is pronounced by pubilc schoolboys as "taste" - an approximation of <b>[tɛɨst]~[tɛʏst]</b>.<br /><br />Is that a myth too?Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13722482936100504510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-27233710142484980072010-12-08T12:25:36.901+00:002010-12-08T12:25:36.901+00:00Well, Alice Roberts has the occasional maɨθ, and I...Well, Alice Roberts has the occasional <b>maɨθ</b>, and I didn't think she was upper class.Leohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04023787332836734901noreply@blogger.com