tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post6270384637428284873..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: singing in foreignJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-71580917743687125782011-03-10T17:42:08.408+00:002011-03-10T17:42:08.408+00:00I don't see that it's even sound as a musi...I don't see that it's even sound as a musical direction. We have been discussing a virtually open-ended list of them with masculine singulars functioning as adverbs. How many can you adduce with feminine plurals agreeing with "note" understood? A sufficiently impressive list might convince us that the f. pl. hypothesis is not only sound, but possibly even correct. In the meantime we have it on the authority of Grove's Dictionary of Music that the French-seeming "sonore" may derive from the commonly found abbreviation "sonorᵉ̠" for "sonoramente".mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-13730369724788211952011-03-10T16:56:14.377+00:002011-03-10T16:56:14.377+00:00Mallamb: But what would "very sonorous notes...Mallamb: But what would "very sonorous notes" be in Italian but <i>note molto sonore</i>? The feminine-plural explanation may not be in fact correct, but it's certainly sound.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-36504302008378734212011-03-09T10:20:18.811+00:002011-03-09T10:20:18.811+00:00Idea duly got, but the stress mark is not out of p...Idea duly got, but the stress mark is not out of place in the last word!mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-7975726300610816452011-03-08T19:08:29.951+00:002011-03-08T19:08:29.951+00:00(Sorry, stress mark out of place in the last word,...(Sorry, stress mark out of place in the last word, and I couldn't vouch that there aren't other errors -- you get the idea, though.)Alannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-16636465269443687372011-03-08T19:04:39.805+00:002011-03-08T19:04:39.805+00:00Re original post: let me guess - does it go someth...Re original post: let me guess - does it go something like this? ;-)<br /><br />[nəʊ leɪ 'guːstə ˌkʰæmɪ'nɑː<br />nəʊ 'pʰweɪdeɪ mɒn'tʰɑːɹə kʰə'baɪjəʊ<br />'kʰəʊməʊ seɪ 'pʰweɪdeɪ baɪ'jɑː<br />eɪz uːn ɪs'kʰændələʊ]Alannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-39725803878598513422011-03-07T17:52:56.003+00:002011-03-07T17:52:56.003+00:00Yes of course they're indeclinable adverbs, bu...Yes of course they're indeclinable adverbs, but they're masculine singular adjectives in form. As you pointed out earlier yourself, so is the "molto" in "molto sonore", however you explain the "sonore". That's why "sonore" is so striking, and why it resists any attempt to argue that it could be a feminine plural agreeing with "notes" (plural, feminine in italian). No more does "molto sonoro" agree with "sound" (singular, masculine in italian) as Nico initially said would make it OK.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-6986115020629533882011-03-07T16:35:14.121+00:002011-03-07T16:35:14.121+00:00The piano, fortissimo, etc. in Tonio Green's l...The <i>piano, fortissimo,</i> etc. in Tonio Green's list are not masculine singular adjectives either: they too are indeclinable adverbs. I'm glad to know about the <i>sonoramente</i> explanation, though.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-49826620800103649422011-03-06T21:02:09.549+00:002011-03-06T21:02:09.549+00:00@mallamb:
Whoops: I see you were actually making ...@mallamb:<br />Whoops: I see you were actually making the same point as me. I should have taken more time to read your original post.<br /><br />@Stephen:<br />One could say that the composer was "confused" about standard Italian, or alternatively that (s)he was writing not Italian but classical-music-Italian-for-musicians-who-don't-otherwise-know-any-Italian. In the latter dialect, "sonore" is standard :)vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-76787911509911946692011-03-06T20:19:11.764+00:002011-03-06T20:19:11.764+00:00The ubiquitous "sonore" noted by vp must...<i>The ubiquitous "sonore" noted by vp must be French.</i><br /><br />I'm pretty sure it isn't, at least not in most cases. It's often found in scores that otherwise use entirely Italian directions.<br /><br />I wish I had more time to investigate this, but the Grove explanation sounds plausible to me. Musicians aren't necessarily scholars of Italian, and there are several other instances of bad Italian found in the works of non-Italian composers.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-47823162589197998302011-03-06T18:56:00.897+00:002011-03-06T18:56:00.897+00:00Like Tonio I thought "sonore" was just a...Like Tonio I thought "sonore" was just a mistake, and that it was preposterous to argue that it could be feminine plural in this musical direction. The ubiquitous "sonore" noted by vp must be French, and "molto sonore" obviously wasn't. But to my annoyance all the online musical dictionaries etc seemed to have "sonore" as the standard form alongside interminable lists of musical directions either in the masculine singular in Italian which as Tonio says you would expect, or obviously French, usually without any indication of which was which. Some did specify which were which, but they didn't give "sonoro". What it opened my eyes to was that these web resources are mostly clones.<br /><br />So Steve, your explanation from Grove clears the whole thing up for me: "sonore" being a misreading of "sonorᵉ̠" as an abbreviation of "sonoramente".mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-17406333766081666322011-03-06T18:28:55.062+00:002011-03-06T18:28:55.062+00:00As Steve Doerr notes, "sonore" is French...As Steve Doerr notes, "sonore" is French; it may be familiar to piano players from the works of Debussy, who uses it a fair bit. I find the individual notes explanation unlikely; rather, I imagine the composer was just confused, and actually meant either "molto sonoro" or "très sonore" (or to be safe, he could have stuck with "very sonorous").<br /><br />OED gives /kæruːˈzɛl/ as its only pronunciation, but I (American) can't recall ever hearing anything other than /ˈkærəsɛl/. You learn a new pronunciation every day (esp. if you read this blog)!Stephenhttp://mypresentandthoughts.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-74857628719896201902011-03-06T04:13:46.925+00:002011-03-06T04:13:46.925+00:00Good luck with "Chaiyya Chaiyya", by the...Good luck with "Chaiyya Chaiyya", by the way. Its <br /><a href="http://www.bollywhat.com/lyrics/dilse_lyr.html#1" rel="nofollow">Sufi-inspired lyrics</a> are exceptionally recondite even by the standards of Bollywood movie songs. Certainly way beyond my own mediocre Hindi :)<br /><br />If you are lucky, maybe they will teach you the Urdu pronunciation, with uvular stops etc, which would seem very appropriate for this particular song.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-60662647165060667182011-03-06T02:49:17.007+00:002011-03-06T02:49:17.007+00:00I understand choral FL singing woes. I am a member...I understand choral FL singing woes. I am a member of my university's select choir, I Cantori, and we recently sang Conrad Susa's "Carols and Lullabies" collection, in Spanish and Catalan. We had a Spanish speaker help us with the pronunciation of the Spanish carols, but for the Catalan carols, we relied on the pronunciation key in the front of the book.<br /><br />Said pronunciation key, for the sake of comprehensibility, ceded IPA for something like "UHL duh-ZEM-bruh coon-zuh-LAT". I was horrified when the conductor began to teach it to the choir as [uːl dəzɛmbrə kunzəlat]. I said something about it, which went virtually unnoticed. The entire song continued in that fashion, with every accented schwa being pronounced as [uː] instead of [ə].<br /><br />We're also singing "The Conversion of Saul" by Z. Randall Stroope, which contains the Latin phrase, "Caedite, vexate, ligate vinculis," over and over again. Half of the basses pronounce everything correctly except for "ligate", which they pronounce [leɡate] or even [leɪɡateɪ]. They should really know better.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10002942830257712936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-74119269395010674112011-03-05T22:43:57.180+00:002011-03-05T22:43:57.180+00:00My parents forced me to learn piano as a kid but I...My parents forced me to learn piano as a kid but I guess I wasn't paying a lot of attention to the grammatical peculiarities of the score I was playing. I don't remember seeing "sonoro" but "sonore" does look a little familiar. Nowdays I've replaced my piano for a laptop that plays music for me. Much better. ;o)Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-25884036944227456702011-03-05T21:54:32.373+00:002011-03-05T21:54:32.373+00:00From Grove:
Sonoramente
(It.: ‘sonorously’; adver...From Grove:<br /><br /><b>Sonoramente</b><br />(It.: ‘sonorously’; adverb from <em>sonoro</em>, ‘sonorous’, ‘resonant’).<br /><br />An indication found particularly in violin music using the lower part of the register and most characteristically used in the years around 1900. It is also found in the form <em>sonore</em>, which is not orthodox Italian (though it is, of course, the appropriate word in French) but may derive from the commonly found abbreviation <em>sonorᵉ̠</em>. Elgar made extensive use of both <em>sonoramente</em> and <em>sonore</em>.Steve Doerrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11410868047916610730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-80881201245956267902011-03-05T17:14:06.904+00:002011-03-05T17:14:06.904+00:00@Tonio Green:
Right or wrong, "sonore" ...@Tonio Green:<br /><br />Right or wrong, "sonore" is the established form in musical scores. I can't remember ever seeing "sonoro", but I've seen "sonore" probably hundreds of times.<br /><br />I'd always tacitly assumed it was some kind of adverb until now.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-84232178519943710882011-03-05T16:35:29.070+00:002011-03-05T16:35:29.070+00:00As for the Valse à mille temps, what I like about ...As for the <i>Valse à mille temps</i>, what I like about is the play between the near-homophonous lines "La valse à cent temps" and "La valse s'entend", and the completely homophonous lines "La valse à mille temps" and "La valse a mis le temps".Tonio Greennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-35154049970042770682011-03-05T16:29:49.350+00:002011-03-05T16:29:49.350+00:00Adjectival musical directions in Italian are alway...Adjectival musical directions in Italian are always masculine singular, though: Piano, fortissimo, accelerando, glissando, legato, rubato, pizzicato, etc. "Sonore" has no business being feminine plural; it's just a mistake.Tonio Greennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-56223600127198569882011-03-04T18:59:49.577+00:002011-03-04T18:59:49.577+00:00Sorry, the link didn't seem to appear in my l...Sorry, the link didn't seem to appear in my last post. Here it is again http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSSp6DyTFW4Barrie Englandhttp://realgrammar.posterous.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-28400885720172619952011-03-04T18:57:43.599+00:002011-03-04T18:57:43.599+00:00For any who don't know it, here's how Jacq...For any who don't know it, here's how Jacques Brel does it .Barrie Englandhttp://realgrammar.posterous.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-13223207583258673412011-03-04T16:59:49.175+00:002011-03-04T16:59:49.175+00:00Molto sonore is correct, despite the apparent clas...<i>Molto sonore</i> is correct, despite the apparent clash in gender, because <i>molto</i> is an indeclinable adverb meaning 'very' in this position. As Anonymous says, <i>sonore</i> is probably feminine because it agrees with the unexpressed <i>note</i>, the plural of <i>nota</i> 'note'.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-84800562047691937262011-03-04T12:57:04.228+00:002011-03-04T12:57:04.228+00:00I stress carousel on the first syllable. But I us...I stress <em>carousel</em> on the first syllable. But I use a schwa in the middle.Philnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-4053375921792072652011-03-04T10:50:27.082+00:002011-03-04T10:50:27.082+00:00John, "acellerare" is a common mistake i...John, "acellerare" is a common mistake in Italy, too. An awful lot of people write it the wrong way, and this is also borne out by Canepàri's DiPI: on page 86 of his dictionary, he marks /atʃˈtʃɛllero/, 'accelero,*accellero' ('I accelerate') as 'trascurata', 'slipshod pronunciation'.Alex Rotatorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15221253493502707131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-82546133300290572172011-03-04T09:21:36.333+00:002011-03-04T09:21:36.333+00:00Pete, re your PS: This was intentional. I reproduc...Pete, re your PS: This was intentional. I reproduce the phrase as it appears on our score. You'll note that when I write it as my own words, in the last para, I include the required accent mark.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-36231942231985639142011-03-04T09:18:24.349+00:002011-03-04T09:18:24.349+00:00Actually carousel in French is pronounced kaʀuzɛl ...Actually <i>carousel</i> in French is pronounced <b>kaʀuzɛl</b> with what the French call a soft (<i>i.e.</i> voiced) S. But I've never heard anything other than <b>ˌkærəˈsel</b> in English.<br /><br />PS - you've missed the accent off <i>escandalo</i> (in the indented quote); it should be <i>escándalo</i>. So what you've got there is <b>eskan'dalo</b> rather than the intended <b>es'kandalo</b>.Petehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13722482936100504510noreply@blogger.com