tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post6678632191769639721..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: an unexpected assimilationJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-81243294568011632942014-10-05T05:15:06.390+01:002014-10-05T05:15:06.390+01:00(@Fonio: Hi Fonio,
do you know Canepari in person,...(@Fonio: Hi Fonio,<br />do you know Canepari in person, as well?)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15387227520330718266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-59844050702477535522011-09-28T21:12:49.780+01:002011-09-28T21:12:49.780+01:00No, no, no. He's talking about Esperanto '...No, no, no. He's talking about Esperanto 'monstro'. I think I've heard this nʲ all my life from various nationals, and it has not struck me as typical of Italians. I predict that the Italian in question might well use it in 'monstro', with the less reserve for its being a cluster that should not have recommended itself to the reportedly Italian-literate internationalist Zamenhof, like an awful lot of other clusters in Esperanto.<br /><br />So wjarek,<br />«Portuguese nasal diphthongs that have (to my ear) a definite palatal component that seems to be integral to the vowel, especially in words such as <i>bem</i>... »<br /><br />You're dead right it's integral, and not only to your ear. But integral to what? Why the vowel? Why not the diphthong, which is a sequence of vowels, is it not? Or better, the sequence of whatever, since the nasal can pop up again, at any rate for people into panchronics as per the ‘The Duke of York gambit’ (see today's blog), as in 'bendizer/bem-dizer' as opposed to 'bem-disposto' or 'bem-vindo/benvindo'.<br /><br />But try another Portuguese nasal diphthong, as in 'tão'. A definite integral 'velar' component, actually adumbrated for our convenience by the orthography! Put 'tão' together with 'bem' and what do you get? 'Também'. Or how do you spell 'tão' without stress? Well '-tam' as in 'cantam'. Stress 'bem' and you get 'bém', 'tam' and you get 'tão', Orthography pure and simple.mallambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07086916400059545681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-73362352609965036342011-09-28T00:28:15.345+01:002011-09-28T00:28:15.345+01:00I'm Italian and have a good knowledge of Itali...I'm Italian and have a good knowledge of Italian accents. I have been fond of phonetics since my teens. I'm now 43 and so far I have never heard anybody palatalise their n's before /s/. I subscribe to what Canepari and Mioni say on the topic, i.e. that palatalised n's only occur before /tʃ, dʒ, ʃ/.<br />To an Italian ear a nʲ before /s/ would sound idiosyncratic/defective speech.<br />/e, ɛ/ are unlikely to have any perceptible influence on the articulation of the following /n/, at least as far as Italian accents are concerned, but if you think the idea of vowel quality affecting the following nasal is worth pursuing, have your informant produce "munsi" (I milked), "monsoni" (monsoons) or "responso" (verdict). In Italian "monster" has no n: it's "mostro".Foniohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07043473096639263522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-76512093465869621422011-09-27T11:07:55.224+01:002011-09-27T11:07:55.224+01:00(@JW - Of course I know you weren't cutting me...(@JW - Of course I know you weren't cutting me or anyone else! I was just expressing my mild amazement and amusement in both the funny-bizarre and funny-ha-ha sense ;)wjarekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07871668374161722713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-55449480878921849112011-09-26T23:15:01.034+01:002011-09-26T23:15:01.034+01:00Once you get past the terminological differences, ...Once you get past the terminological differences, Canepari's descriptions for Standard Italian pronunciation are in full agreement with Mioni's quoted above. The Italian /n/ is normally alveolar, but becomes denti-alveolar (Mioni's 'apico-dental' or Canepari's 'dental') just like Italian /t/, /d/, and /s/ when preceding those consonants.<br /><br />It is not clear from the selection above whether Mioni makes the distinction between the place of articulation for normal /n/ and the denti-alveolars, though. The distinction is tiny enough to be safely ignored in most general treatments.<br /><br />I took a quick look through Canepari's extensive discussion of the dialects and languages of Italy in his <i>Natural Phonetics and Tonetics</i>, but there is no description anywhere of /n/ becoming palatalized before /s/. In dialects where the standard treatment of /n/ doesn't hold, by far the most common variant is where /n/ is a velar nasal [ŋ] or a similar semi-nasal (with less than full contact) before any consonant.Jongseonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12558136756392729306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-89050165056031477332011-09-26T19:29:44.298+01:002011-09-26T19:29:44.298+01:00I wish my Italian were better, but Canepari seems ...I wish my Italian were better, but Canepari seems to describe a dentalization of /n/ before /s/ in section 1.3 of his <em>Dizionario de Pronuncia Italiana</em>. Not sure this is compatible with the idea of palatalization.Steve Doerrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18210787261745134371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-67082830398286321412011-09-26T18:21:23.321+01:002011-09-26T18:21:23.321+01:00And why is this assimilation noteworthy? Surely th...And why is this assimilation noteworthy? Surely the vowel is a rational source of the palatalization, but if so, why dwell on something so small?Glen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02440249042894225949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-88207180073605629172011-09-26T12:04:35.294+01:002011-09-26T12:04:35.294+01:00(wjarek - I did call at Katarzyna's office to ...(wjarek - I did call at Katarzyna's office to say hello, but she was away. I wasn't cutting you, honest.)John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-68674253810087821252011-09-26T11:20:59.289+01:002011-09-26T11:20:59.289+01:00(Funny how we got to meet in the far-away lands bu...(Funny how we got to meet in the far-away lands but not here!)<br /><br />Did the student give any other examples? Maybe the "assimilation" comes from the vowel rather than being dependent on the following consonant. It made me think of Portuguese nasal diphthongs that have (to my ear) a definite palatal component that seems to be integral to the vowel, especially in words such as <i>bem</i>... Not that I know much about Portuguese or Italian...wjarekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07871668374161722713noreply@blogger.com