tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post7756100274066033586..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: coming back downJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-18676584382644005082020-06-23T11:29:32.161+01:002020-06-23T11:29:32.161+01:00Haloo pak^^
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Hardly anomalous: just examples of ...@Lazar Taxon:<br /><br />Hardly anomalous: just examples of the usual English rule suppressing aspiration after sibilants.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-22988829124255317802012-08-17T01:54:41.045+01:002012-08-17T01:54:41.045+01:00Canepari says that stressed /ts/ and /pf/ are both...Canepari says that stressed /ts/ and /pf/ are both aspirated in German. I'm not knowledgeable enough to offer my own opinion on the German affricates, but I do find my own stressed English /tʃ/ to be aspirated. In a case of the exception that proves the rule, my idiolect has an anomalous unspirated /tʃ/ in "exchange" [ɪkˈstʃeɪndʒ] and "exchequer" [ɪkˈstʃɛkɚ] and nowhere else.Lazar Taxonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13221219358689771815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-41693348592588777982012-08-16T07:56:22.928+01:002012-08-16T07:56:22.928+01:00For partly voiced consonants the linguist have a w...For partly voiced consonants the linguist have a word, it is some 'voice', I forget which. I hear the English 'b', 'd', 'g' as voiced most of time,except perhaps finally. But I hear also the corresponding Chinese sounds quite often as voiced, too. I normally don't hear the English voiceless stops (or German ones) as aspirated, except when they start speaking a language like Dutch, Italian or Polish, in which the voiceless stops stand out as aspirated (in their performance) and make for a foreign accent.<br /><br />Re the German "z", methinks it is non-aspirated, but I'll have to check. German does not aspirate all 'p's, etc. for instance after 's-' it's not aspirated: sprechen, Stein, Skala, all unaspirated. Neither is the specifically German sound 'pf' aspirated, methinks. Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-68748852929812658462012-08-16T07:46:07.043+01:002012-08-16T07:46:07.043+01:00Yes, but substituting ..scription for ...literatio...Yes, but substituting ..scription for ...literation was the only way I could make sense of the above note: (Pete's):<br /><br />'Also, I don't think most Latin-alphabet languages transliterate loanwords from other Latin-alphabet languages'<br /><br />if you read 'transliterate' literally in the above you start wondering why Pete thinks he only 'does not think' that they transliterate, as there is nothing to 'think'. You cannot transliterate from Latin alphabet to Latin alphabet, can you? The context (Serbian, Turkish, Latvian) convinced me, though, that what he meant was 'transcribing'.<br /><br />UNLESS --- unless perhaps --- by 'transliterating from Latin alphabet to Latin alphabet' you should mean such as Händel-->Handel or Woźniacki-->Wozniacki, but in this case I'd say the description of what you are doing is wrong: you're transliterating not from Latin alphabet to Latin alphabet, but from one national version of same to another. <br /><br />Gosh, I am getting pedantic, sorry...<br /><br />Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-57587943442987767902012-08-16T06:06:33.531+01:002012-08-16T06:06:33.531+01:00Wojciech
"I'd suppose because the Englis...Wojciech<br /><br />"I'd suppose because the English /b, d, g/ are voiced or partly voiced as a concomitant feature, your Bengali aspirated /p, t, k/ are much more aspirated than the English ones."<br /><br />Aspiration is not my issue: I do think English /p, k, t, tʃ/ are aspirated and are exactly similar to Bengali (and other Indo-Aryan) aspirates /pʰ, kʰ, tʰ, tʃʰ/, despite your claims about more/less aspiration (and indeed the claims of several others). My problem is with the exact phonetic nature of English /b, g, d, dʒ/, which as you've pointed out are "partly voiced as a concomitant feature" - but I don't understand "partly voiced". But, I suppose this sort of subtle distinctions are not for the human ear to hear.<br /><br />Anyway, since you seem to be quite an authority on German, I ask this quite-astray-from-Pīnyīn question. John Wells, toward the beginning of this post, says, "Its unaspirated counterpart is spelt z, like in German.": shouldn't the German /ts/ be aspirated as well, as should German /tʃ/, spelled tsch? German aspirates /p, t, k/, so why not the affricates; beats me. English aspirates both its plosives and the lone affricate, and if Wikipedia is anything to go by, so do Turkish and Persian, so why should German affricates behave, well..., funny.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11343068774549667364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-81596709037121227322012-08-15T23:12:39.253+01:002012-08-15T23:12:39.253+01:00Wojciech
I first learnt Shakespeare as 'Szeks...Wojciech<br /><br /><i>I first learnt Shakespeare as 'Szekspir", Voltaire as "Wolter", 'Schiller" as "Szyller" and such-like.</i>.<br /><br />Surely that's transcription, not transliteration. And using the original spelling is neither.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-17380604330583748022012-08-15T20:14:10.280+01:002012-08-15T20:14:10.280+01:00Ah, thank you!Ah, thank you!Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-82785930432327569012012-08-15T19:59:15.155+01:002012-08-15T19:59:15.155+01:00'Also, I don't think most Latin-alphabet l...'Also, I don't think most Latin-alphabet languages transliterate loanwords from other Latin-alphabet languages.'<br /><br />As a madder-of-fact, we (Pl) used to polonise foreign names up to like the fifties, perhaps, I can't remember exactly, but some time thereabouts. I first learnt Shakespeare as 'Szekspir", Voltaire as "Wolter", 'Schiller" as "Szyller" and such-like. I was duly shocked to learn what they were spelled in reality, that is, in their respective native-tongues. Now we don't, but we have retained 'futbol' for instance. I think Latvians and Lithuanians still do, plus they append endings, case-endings I mean, without which the words would not be declinabe. Volters, Volteras, Lenins, Leninas, the shorter form is always Latvian. It's old-fashioned, in a way, sort of like the Anglo-Saxons dropping accents and other diacritic sings, Handel for Händel and such... And yes, we too use "lider" (leader). Non-polonised foreign names and words are often pronounced terribly, for instance the Italian "ch" (gnocchi, macchiato) is often a "ch" with the Spanish or English phonetic value.<br /><br />Anglicisation galore: Gaelic and perhaps Welsh names, all the Nuallains turned Nolans, Caomhins-Kevins, this is not a tu-quoque reproach, just an observation.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-28106760459607109082012-08-15T14:30:35.513+01:002012-08-15T14:30:35.513+01:00Cornelis, apparently.Cornelis, <a href="http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kees" rel="nofollow">apparently</a>.Steve Doerrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18210787261745134371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-59619399899578429772012-08-15T13:27:53.753+01:002012-08-15T13:27:53.753+01:00David Crosbie,
"Why don't sports comment...David Crosbie,<br /><br />"Why don't sports commentators and Joe Public have difficulty with Icelandic and Danish names that they see in writing? In particular how can the other Scandinavians experience so little difficulty?"<br /><br />Actually, they do - but it hardly matters - as as the aspirated /p, k, t/ in these languages map to aspirated phonemes in English (and other Germanic languages, except Dutch maybe), and so the actual phonetic realization of /b, g, d/ makes little difference. Moreover, Icelandic and Danish are equipped with some of the wildest and absolutely confusing sound systems (allophones and phonemes, stød and voiceless liquids); so, even if people get the plosives right, they'd still get the rest of the word wrong.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11343068774549667364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-41353907650347398082012-08-15T10:54:24.580+01:002012-08-15T10:54:24.580+01:00I once have heard the legend that Kant was origina...I once have heard the legend that Kant was originally spelt 'Cant' (the family and the name was of Scottish origin) but changed the spelling so that they might not pronounce it as 'tsant'. Se non e` vero...<br /><br />There is a Dutch writer Cees Nooteboom, but he is somewhat counterintuitively pronounced /ke:s/. What 'cees' is short for I wot not. Jacobus, perhas.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-37499724472767566332012-08-15T10:45:23.915+01:002012-08-15T10:45:23.915+01:00Yeah, I haven't got a second or middle name, u...Yeah, I haven't got a second or middle name, unfortunately, my parents had not thought that I might one day become worth pronouncing by foreigners.... Your observation concerning my name is quite right and enlightening. <br /><br />Names with cVC: unfortunately I don't know any of these languages well. A few Polish words: cud (miracle), cel (goal), cyc (tit), cal (inch), cap (buck), cep (flail), cech (guild).... quite a few. Proper names at the moment I can't think any of.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-61345978684594094422012-08-15T10:21:25.206+01:002012-08-15T10:21:25.206+01:00Wojciech
If you were a sportsman new on the scene...Wojciech<br /><br />If you were a sportsman new on the scene, I suppose some commentators might call you <b>wɔdʒsɪɛtʃ</b>.<br /><br />Actually, this is unlikely — because, in various ways, it doesn't <b>look like</b> a name pronounced as it's (for us) spelled. One way that hasn't been commented on is the <b>number of letters</b>. Three-letter <i>Can</i> (bis) cries out for spelling pronunciation — unlike seven-letter <i>Wojciech</i>. <br /><br />In that long list of European languages you cited, do you know of any <b>names</b> with the orthographic structure <i>c</i>VC? And are there all that many 'ordinary' words like this?David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-86150737088630537622012-08-15T08:26:26.658+01:002012-08-15T08:26:26.658+01:00Ad mollymooly
'It seems to me that English, a...Ad mollymooly<br /><br />'It seems to me that English, as the world language, is expected to respect the conventions of a source language to an extent other European languages are not.'<br /><br />Please enlighten me why this should be so, I can't see, honestly. Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-54574156052446023282012-08-15T08:16:44.816+01:002012-08-15T08:16:44.816+01:00Ad David Crosbie,
'Caroline Wozniacki keeps t...Ad David Crosbie,<br /><br />'Caroline Wozniacki keeps the family spelling'<br /><br />Woźniacki, to be quite strict, and to be even stricter, Woźniacka (see the paragraph on Polish feminine surnames on the German Wikipedia on 'Polnische Sprache'). So not quite family spelling, nor grammatical form.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-9908005017510931502012-08-15T08:13:25.799+01:002012-08-15T08:13:25.799+01:00Ad Samopriya Basu
'(though my Bengali ears, e...Ad Samopriya Basu<br /><br />'(though my Bengali ears, even with the 4 way stop distinction-plain voiceless /p, k, &c./ '<br /><br />I'd suppose because the English /b, d, g/ are voiced or partly voiced as a concomitant feature, your Bengali aspirated /p, t, k/ are much more aspirated than the English ones.<br /><br />When I quote Polish words with a Polish unaspirated stop to Germans, for instance 'kot', cat, they tend to hear it as their voiced stops, so that our cat sounds to them like their God ('Gott'), except that the cat's final /t/ is not aspirated either, as distinct from their '-tt'. And in Franconian dialects they have unaspirated voiceless stops, rendered in spelling (if rendered) with a 'voiced' letter, e. g. 'Gatze', cat ('Katze').<br /><br />Re Chinese: I with my Polish ears do hear quite often their words spelt with the 'voiced' letters as ... voiced, though I know this must be wrong... yet I can't help hearing them that way, for instance their 'de' ('of')---heard it yesterday on the airport of Gdańsk---sounds very much like the homographous French word with more or less the same function. The vowel is somewhat different, though, but not toto coelo/caelo.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-54503249684833582022012-08-15T08:03:00.773+01:002012-08-15T08:03:00.773+01:00'Some years ago the authorities in the Swiss c...'Some years ago the authorities in the Swiss city of what was then known in English as Basle insisted that it be referred to,'<br /><br />what an idiocy. Was anyone cowardly enough to comply with that 'regulation'?<br /><br />I fail to see, though, how such-like could be supposed to reflect English's status as a/the lingua franca. Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-8389175343807904342012-08-15T07:42:03.189+01:002012-08-15T07:42:03.189+01:00Thanks goodness Mr Wells is back...
>Pinyin c ...Thanks goodness Mr Wells is back...<br /><br />>Pinyin c is like in Polish, a voiceless alveolar affricate<br /><br />not just like in Polish and Latvian, but also in Estonian (foreign names), Lithuanian, Czech, Lusatian (Upper and Lower), Slovak, Slovene, Serbo-Croatian (I believe in the existence of this language), Hungarian, Albanian, occasionally German (as in 'Cäsar', the Old French pronunciation of the Latin 'c' before front vowels) and Old French, which seems to be the first source of this phonetic value of the letter. <br /><br />In Slavic, the letter is popular due to the frequency of the corresponding sound (<-- Proto-Slavic /k/, on which David Crosbie has written several times, furnishing historical explanations). But a parallel evolution has taken place in Latvian, making the letter much-needed in that language (in the said phonetic value), whereas in the more archaic Lithuanian it occurs mainly in loanwords, if not exclusively. (Lithuanian 'kiek', Latvian 'cik', how much, 'kaina' 'cena', price, and so on. In Hungarian I don't know, tho' there seem to be quite a few native-looking H. words with a 'c' in the said phonetic value.<br /><br />Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.com