tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post7772345470559244449..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: John Trim 1924-2013John Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-87355796917589152642020-06-12T10:17:11.508+01:002020-06-12T10:17:11.508+01:00Haloo pak^^
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The general of IPA users didn't use to ...Ellen<br /><br />The general of IPA users didn't use to think like that, even if some phoneticians disapproved. Eventually the phoneticians had their way, those more interested in <b>'the psychological and pedagogic angles'</b> and wishful that <b>'ordinary roman letters should be used as far as may be practicable'</b> were not best pleased.<br /><br />In the sort of English pronunciation that interested British teachers — RP, near-RP, modified RP and any accent with more or less the same phonological inventory — all that mattered was that the third vowel in <i>pronunciation</i> is not long.<br /><br />Rightly or wrongly I think of that vowel as happY as you suggest. I was much more contented (I was about to write <i>happier</i>) when <i>happy</i> was transcribed <b>hæpi</b>. I always had an aversion to the pronunciation nowadays represented as <i>hæpɪ</i>. Perhaps it was an unconscious defensive reaction when I thought I was an RP speaker. The notion of the happY vowel distinct from the KIT vowel is a comfort.<br /><br />I certainly don't say <b>prənʌnsɪ-</b>. Even in modern transcription I say <b>prənʌnsi-</b>. Well, it might conceivably be <b>prənʌnsɪj-</b>, but that would be making a meal of it.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-72111862265978693102013-02-10T12:42:33.074+00:002013-02-10T12:42:33.074+00:00Hi Ellen! You can take a look at this: http://oald...Hi Ellen! You can take a look at this: http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/pronunciation<br />(An untrained Spanish speaker would say something like pronʌnˈsjeɪʃon, with perhaps some sort of secondary stress on the FIRST syllable, but never on the second.)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01762196203762970377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-27427037935746223232013-02-09T18:26:59.050+00:002013-02-09T18:26:59.050+00:00Here is his famous gin/Jean example. (I hope it...Here is his famous <a href="http://tinyurl.com/bf2r3wh" rel="nofollow">gin/Jean example</a>. (I hope it's visible - I scanned it some time ago in a low resolution.)Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-39951846119694600442013-02-09T15:15:51.849+00:002013-02-09T15:15:51.849+00:00Come to think of it, that doesn't explain the ...Come to think of it, that doesn't explain the book title. I understand why the two vowels in English get the same transcription. I know that many have KIT there where some of us (me included) have FLEECE.<br /><br />But I don't understand <b>prənʌnsɪˈeɪʃn</b>. I'd take the third syllable to have FLEECE, but it's not marked as long. Is it actually happY?Ellen Kozisekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16856539181411664278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-61927362237389989982013-02-09T15:02:09.569+00:002013-02-09T15:02:09.569+00:00Ah thanks. I hadn't encountered that before. A...Ah thanks. I hadn't encountered that before. And as an American, I mostly ignore length marks when reading IPA and reading for meaning, except after <b>a</b> where they indicate a place I'd have an <b>r</b>. This is the first time I've encountered a transcription where that didn't work.Ellen Kozisekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16856539181411664278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-2460992807098025942013-02-09T15:01:31.764+00:002013-02-09T15:01:31.764+00:00I didn't realise the link would be to that Jap...I didn't realise the link would be to that Japanese site. More examples of <b>i</b> instead of <b>ɪ</b>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-80539618233157483072013-02-09T14:58:22.065+00:002013-02-09T14:58:22.065+00:00In John's image above the front cover of the 1...In John's image above the front cover of the 1975 Trim & Knweebone's delightful book shows <b>ˈɪŋlɪʃ prənʌnsɪˈeɪʃn ˈɪləstreɪtɪd</b>. Compare <a href="http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&docid=J9XKRzJLyTsX4M&tbnid=8fs1SZMiuQDvkM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.yahoo.co.jp%2Fbanno37%2F33888938.html&ei=GV0WUZ2UCumM0AWW6YDQDA&bvm=bv.42080656,d.d2k&psig=AFQjCNHUHTWaHHoMFlPQEdFdIZy1wI8Jbg&ust=1360506508343284" rel="nofollow">this cover </a> of the first edition. (My book looks the same and is dated 1965.) If your compiter system allows, you should make out <b>ˈiŋliʃ prənʌnsiˈeiʃn ˈiləstreitid</b>.<br /><br />The page which begins with <b> a sheep....a ship.......a bean...a bin</b> is headed <b>i:/i</b> and these are the symbols consistently used. <br /><br />On the <b>i</b> page, there's an <i>-ed</i> spelling in <b>ˈwitʃ əv ðə ˈsiks ˈθin ˈwimin iz ə ˈwikid ˈwitʃ?</b> I wish you could see the picture!<br /><br />There's an even better pair of picture to illustrate <b>ˈdʒi:n ̩laiks ˈdʒin ... bət ˈdʒɪn ˈdʌznt ̩laik ˈdʒi:n!</b><br /><br />Similarly <b>ei</b> is the heading of the page which begins with <b>a space ship</b>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-90517499365285841072013-02-09T14:02:28.089+00:002013-02-09T14:02:28.089+00:00Ellen
The 1949 version of The Principles of the I...Ellen<br /><br />The 1949 version of The Principles of the International Phonetic Association states in its second paragraph:<br /><br /><i>2. The alphabet is intended particularly for writing connected texts. Consequently, in its construction attention has been paid not only to the appropriateness of each letter from a phonetic point of view, but also to the suitability of letters from the psychological and pedagogical angles and as regards typographical harmony, the needs of the printer and written form.</i><br /><br />Drawing on this, the next paragraph states<br /><br /><i>Ordinary roman letters should be used as far as may be practicable</i><br /><br />In the PHONEMES section, Principle 6 states<br /><br /><i> 6. In languages where there are consistent relationships between vowel-length and vowel-quality, two vowel qualities may be considered as belonging to a single phoneme, the quality being conditioned by the length. Thus, in transcribing normal Southern English we may write </i>feet <i>and</i> fit <i>as <b>fi:t, fit,</b> using the same letter <b>i</b> but with the length mark in the first word.</i><br /><br />The footnote to this sentence reads:<br /><br /><i>We cannot do this in types of English such as American and Scottish, in which there are no consistent relationships between vowel quality and length</i><br /><br />In <b>ILLUSTRATIONS OF THE VOWEL SYMBOLS</b>, paragraph 24 they include a symbol now replaced by <b>ɪ</b>. (Sort of like dotless i in italics), which is to be used<br /><br /><i>As in Eng. </i>bit<i>; Ger..</i> bitte<i>. Can often be written with <b>i</b>, see §6. </i><br /><br />In their specimen transcriptions of Scottish and American pronunciations of <i>The North Wind and the Sun</i>, they use that distinct predecessor of <b>ɪ</b>. In their three broadest-narrower-narrowest transcriptions of 'one variety of Southern British', only the narrowest uses this distinct symbol.<br /><br />In more modern times, the interests of phoneticians have been elevated above '<i>the psychological and pedagogical angles</i>' that used to be important.<br /><br />When I started teaching English language, IPA transcription was still broadly valued in the trade. We happily used books with the simplest possible version of Daniel Jones's English Pronouncing Dictionary. The last thing we wanted was a proliferation of vowel symbols. If we'd been aware of difficulties with American and Scottish pronunciation, that was somebody else's problem.<br /><br />Although there are still enthusiasts like me, the EFL trade has largely lost interest in IPA. (They lost interest in Phonetics long ago.) Trim stood out as combining the role of distinguished phonetician and leading figure in an important field of language learning.<br /><br />David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-74505508539779800822013-02-08T17:20:27.485+00:002013-02-08T17:20:27.485+00:00Thanks!Thanks!Krauthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11932831673529849848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-89314027051770897192013-02-08T14:59:35.143+00:002013-02-08T14:59:35.143+00:00I find it curious that, both in the brief article ...I find it curious that, both in the brief article and on the book cover, he does not differentiate between <b>i</b> and <b>ɪ</b>.Ellen Kozisekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16856539181411664278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-1579877999616843132013-02-08T14:17:10.379+00:002013-02-08T14:17:10.379+00:00Wikipedia says 'Leslie Melville'.<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Trim_(linguist)" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia</a> says 'Leslie Melville'.Steve Doerrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18210787261745134371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-35532090313758664612013-02-08T12:36:51.733+00:002013-02-08T12:36:51.733+00:00John, do you know what Trim's initials "L...John, do you know what Trim's initials "L.M." stand for?<br />/pɛtr røːzəl/<br />Krauthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11932831673529849848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-59968645626512773272013-02-07T15:21:10.211+00:002013-02-07T15:21:10.211+00:00Jack Windsor Lewis has written about him here.Jack Windsor Lewis has written about him <a href="http://www.yek.me.uk/Blog.html#blog433" rel="nofollow">here</a>.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-24289079950033865722013-02-07T12:56:13.404+00:002013-02-07T12:56:13.404+00:00Sad news. I had noted a few publications, but as y...Sad news. I had noted a few publications, but as you write, not directed specifically at English, except perhaps as co-editor of In Honour of Daniel Jones (Longman's 1964).Sidney Woodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01138711082469220983noreply@blogger.com