tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post8701965748679196061..comments2024-03-17T09:14:13.950+00:00Comments on John Wells’s phonetic blog: and in FrenchJohn Wellshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comBlogger73125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-45558433836676525272012-02-29T16:10:33.335+00:002012-02-29T16:10:33.335+00:00I once had the misfortune to have to sit in a wait...I once had the misfortune to have to sit in a waiting room for two hours with nothing to read and only two other people in the room, who were having an animated conversation in Polish (of which I understand not a syllable). I nearly died of linguistic boredom: endless unreduced vowels and penultimate stress!<br /><br />By contrast, I can listen to lengthy Russian conversations, where I also understand nothing, with ease.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-50846231088323515202012-02-28T23:13:46.384+00:002012-02-28T23:13:46.384+00:00It is a similar situation, yes.It is a similar situation, yes.Lukashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07695619119232464016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-81942434191137912592012-02-28T18:00:17.413+00:002012-02-28T18:00:17.413+00:00But is 'mo:n' for 'minae olen' sta...But is 'mo:n' for 'minae olen' standard literary Finnish? I doubt. For aught I know, it is a 'parallel language', spoken Finnish, like, say, Swiss German (spoken) as different from Standard German (written). Is that wrong?Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-76620790165746587782012-02-28T17:50:33.959+00:002012-02-28T17:50:33.959+00:00Finnish often isn't very phonemic: "minä ...Finnish often isn't very phonemic: "minä olen" is pronounced <b>moːn</b>. <br /><br />Finnish would be phonemic if it were pronounced as it is written. But then, any language would be phonemic if it were pronounced as it is written.Lukashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07695619119232464016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-76568987862975976982012-02-28T15:32:44.204+00:002012-02-28T15:32:44.204+00:00Finnish is in fact quite famous for its 'phone...Finnish is in fact quite famous for its 'phoneticity' and from you I have learnt why it is not perfect in this respect. Nothing is perfect in this world... Do all composita ..VC... have this type of doubling?Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-10418816256921031412012-02-28T10:38:24.644+00:002012-02-28T10:38:24.644+00:00The Finnish writing system is virtually phonemic. ...The Finnish writing system is virtually phonemic. I say "virtually" because even though your average Finn will say that Finnish is completely "phonetic", there are some instances where the spelling doesn't exactly follow the pronunciation. An example of this would be /k/ initial phonemes following /e/ as in hernekeitto (pea soup), where a glottal stop precedes the /k/ in keitto (soup). This results in a pronunciation of "hernekkeitto". This phenomenon is in fact well documented in more in-depth Finnish grammar books as "loppukahdennus" (lit. end doubling). Interestingly, some regional dialects of Finnish lack this feature (western coastal dialects). Elsewhere in Finnish, double consonants are crucial to understanding, as the glottalised phoneme boundary dictates the word meaning, for example, kuka (who), kukka (flower).Robert Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18040625047419146197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-6136893073735656272012-02-27T16:09:22.090+00:002012-02-27T16:09:22.090+00:00yes, but your question sent me thinking...
and ye...yes, but your question sent me thinking...<br /><br />and yes, I suspect that what I have in 'marznąć' is different both from 'n' and 'ń'. Such things are largely inscrutable, to me at least.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-85021984023645228512012-02-27T15:51:46.068+00:002012-02-27T15:51:46.068+00:00I think this depends on the specific capcha implem...I think this depends on the specific capcha implementation. I once had an installation of a content management system where the captcha was strictly CVCV.wjarekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07871668374161722713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-15512029018852050902012-02-27T15:44:17.503+00:002012-02-27T15:44:17.503+00:00I was really just asking a question.
I wouldn'...I was really just asking a question.<br /><br />I wouldn't be surprised if someone found that there is in fact "another palatal nasal" in Polish in this kind of context (i.e. different from your regular <i>ń</i> in e.g. <i>pranie</i>).<br /><br />For example, the accepted orthodoxy about <i>ą</i> before fricatives is that the second element is a nasalised [w] or [j]. But there was an old paper by Jassem in which he argued for more (and different) options on the basis of the position of the tip of the tongue. Can't remember what they were exactly. So maybe here you have something that is not 100% the same as a "regular <i>ń</i>"... ?wjarekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07871668374161722713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-57044105583088987172012-02-27T07:52:18.875+00:002012-02-27T07:52:18.875+00:00ad wjarek
de sentimentibus non est disputandum. T...ad wjarek<br /><br />de sentimentibus non est disputandum. There is no moral obligation, a fortiori, to have nice or neutral feelings about certain linguistic changes. I dislike the changes, not the persons who have them. The amphibrachic rhythm in three-syllable words, I also find it boring. Poles often use it in Italian, too, erroneously, e.g. 'il sinDAco di BerGAmo, where it's il SINdaco di BERGamo. Dactylic.<br /><br />About verbal forms you are right, of course. The penultimate stress is somehow coupled with preachery tone of voice or excessive didacticism, which I also dislike.<br /><br />If they are clearly winning out I dunno yet, I hope it'll take some time, at least as long as I am alive.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-14269486015568466592012-02-27T06:58:49.742+00:002012-02-27T06:58:49.742+00:00On reflection and more experimentation I must fina...On reflection and more experimentation I must finally admit that I have a different nasal consonant in 'marznąć' and 'marznący'. Vicisti! as Z.K. would have said.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-45730727322552541012012-02-26T21:34:50.469+00:002012-02-26T21:34:50.469+00:00Well, I ain't sure no more, it thinketh me so ...Well, I ain't sure no more, it thinketh me so only. I only know that I have to put some conscious effort into saying 'zmarznońć' (with a ɲ). Maybe you're right, I'd like to see some X-rays... . The front of the tongue doesn't seem to rise much. Sometimes I have the impression the vowel itself is nasal, rather than decomposed into an o and an n or an ɲ. Curious.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-88792115075896419582012-02-26T21:01:50.773+00:002012-02-26T21:01:50.773+00:00have 'n' rather than 'ɲ' here
Rea...<i>have 'n' rather than 'ɲ' here</i><br /><br />Really? Do you really feel the same nasal in <i>marznąć</i> and <i>marznący</i>? That's sort of against the rules of Polish phonology ;)<br /><br />The dental contact doesn't matter. But what is the front of the tongue doing?wjarekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07871668374161722713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-9166787586452066872012-02-26T20:28:01.106+00:002012-02-26T20:28:01.106+00:00Well, poetry is not the right word. I mean, these ...Well, poetry is not the right word. I mean, these captions are always or nearly always suggestive of some language, sometimes Romance, sometimes something English-like, sometimes something else---like Nordic. But never Bantu or Tibeto-Burmese, or Burushaski, for that matter. Does the Wikipedia entry explain how they generate them? Maybe they chop and shuffle real words from an assortment of languages. In which case they'd be well-advised to extend that assortment.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-48474151648799951442012-02-26T20:13:42.149+00:002012-02-26T20:13:42.149+00:00ɲ for /'märznɔntɕ/,thus /'märznɔɲtɕ/?
We...ɲ for /'märznɔntɕ/,thus /'märznɔɲtɕ/?<br /><br />Well, I myself seem to have 'n' rather than 'ɲ' here. The tongue is in the 'dental' position, as if in anticipation of the following non-palatal /t/ of /tɕ/. I can't discern any difference between that and /lɔnt/ for 'ląd', firm land. I would not be tempted to spell this word as 'marznońć'.<br /><br />/su'ita/, 3 syllables, yes, this too. The word is tricky.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-30092003475966654112012-02-26T19:52:59.337+00:002012-02-26T19:52:59.337+00:00별도 should be |bjʌl-do| instead of |byʌl-do|. I sta...별도 should be |bjʌl-do| instead of |byʌl-do|. I started writing the above comment using a more English-like romanization before I changed my mind and made it more IPA-like.Jongseonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12558136756392729306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-52796118110153923512012-02-26T19:25:20.457+00:002012-02-26T19:25:20.457+00:00We're also getting better at keeping the spam ...We're also getting better at keeping the spam out because I have realized that I need to check every couple of days or so, and have discovered how to do that efficiently using the tools available in Blogger. (Also how to reinstate genuine postings that Blogger thought was spam.)<br /><br />I've cleared all the spam from the last 12 months' postings, but there is still some old spam left there in the earlier years.John Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13684304410735867148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-56593643579617274502012-02-26T18:32:54.834+00:002012-02-26T18:32:54.834+00:00@Wojciech: If you want to be very accurate and ins...@Wojciech: If you want to be very accurate and insist on /ä/, then you would probably want /ɲ/ for the second nasal in <i>marznąć</i>.<br /><br />For <i>suita</i>, I have what you transcribe, but I have very definitely heard people saying /suˈita/.wjarekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07871668374161722713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-16869991579138935652012-02-26T17:41:55.411+00:002012-02-26T17:41:55.411+00:00sorry, it's /'märznɔntɕ/, freeze, marznąć....sorry, it's /'märznɔntɕ/, freeze, marznąć.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-18024298228754083082012-02-26T17:22:28.916+00:002012-02-26T17:22:28.916+00:00tysiąchektarowy: /tɨɕɔntsxɛktäˈrɔvɨ/ 1000 hectars ...tysiąchektarowy: /tɨɕɔntsxɛktäˈrɔvɨ/ 1000 hectars large, 'ch' is normally pronounced /x/. t is dental, /ts/ stands here for one sound, like 'z' in German, I can't get in the linking 'moustache'.<br /><br />marznąć: /märz'nɔntɕ/, freeze, 'rz' is normally /ʒ/.<br /><br />dania: däɲä dishes, courses.<br /><br />Dania, däɲjä Denmark. Before 1936 they spelt the country 'Danja', which was truer to pronunciation. d, like t, is dental in Polish.<br /><br />'suita' (suite, in music) is /'switä/. But the word looks as if it could just as well be pronounced /'sujtä/ and I am aware of at least one case of such mispronunciation.<br /><br />matematyka, mätɛmätɨkä, t is dental. With stress on the antepenultimate, this means 'mathematics', penultimate -- 'a mathematician's'. <br /><br />No 100 p.c. guarantee of accuracy of the above, be warned. I am an 'ignorant amateur', to use the _epitheton ornans_ coined by a justly irate Mr. Wells. But it does seem to me that I've got the thing right.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-37186012614415441632012-02-26T15:16:58.487+00:002012-02-26T15:16:58.487+00:00It's not the CAPTCHA, it's the fact that y...It's not the CAPTCHA, it's the fact that you need to have an account to post. Either Google, OpenID, WordJournal...Duchesse de Guermanteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12198316853449400624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-31007227000535998032012-02-26T15:15:19.323+00:002012-02-26T15:15:19.323+00:00Some questions need to be answered. For example, d...Some questions need to be answered. For example, differential phonology. How do the ʃ, tʃ, dʒ differ from language to language, Spanish, Italian, German, English, French, in terms of place of articulation, manner etc. Apicality, laminality, absence or presence of palatalization?<br /><br />Anyone?<br /><br />We also need to solve the mystery of the German and English o, since if you compare the diagrams in Cambridge dictionary and Duden, they are exactly the same.<br /><br />English should've kept o for ɔ and ɒ untouched.<br /><br />Wojciechs needs to tell us the pronunciation of those unintuitive words from Polish quoted by ahven. And the word for mathematics.Duchesse de Guermanteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12198316853449400624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-64871954546306099242012-02-26T13:16:29.607+00:002012-02-26T13:16:29.607+00:00I've now tried the audio version and I think i...I've now tried the audio version and I think it's more difficult. Numbers embedded in babble and noise. In English, of course ;)wjarekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07871668374161722713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-88658322492523247832012-02-26T13:14:49.436+00:002012-02-26T13:14:49.436+00:00I think I've seen captchas that are much more ...I think I've seen captchas that are much more difficult. The ones on here are usually doable on first attempt. And you can always try the audio version...<br /><br />And wrt to their poeticness (poeticity?), I actually have the impression that they used to be more poetic. Or maybe at least more perversely pertinent to the topic. I've even commented on this at some point.wjarekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07871668374161722713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-377103124456226005.post-75367893543174184032012-02-26T12:55:21.923+00:002012-02-26T12:55:21.923+00:00Don't either of you think it's getting dam...Don't either of you think it's getting damnably difficult?<br /><br /><br />I do. The world belongs to the young. Yet, 'up with the postcocious', e. g. us---sez I.Podpora społeczeństwahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08339088245843399386noreply@blogger.com